# State Your Case: Why Lee Roy Jordan belongs in the Hall

The Dallas Cowboys of 1966-78 were one of the most successful teams ever assembled.

Those Cowboys of Tom Landry advanced to the playoffs 12 times in 13 seasons, won 10 NFC East titles and played in nine NFC championship games. They won five NFC titles but only two Super Bowls.

There were two heart-breaking losses to Green Bay in NFL title games in 1966 and 1967. The Packers escaped with a 34-27 victory at the Cotton Bowl when Don Meredith threw an interception from the Green Bay 2 in the final moments. The Packers escaped the Ice Bowl with a 21-17 victory at Lambeau Field the following season on a quarterback sneak by Hall-of-Famer Bart Starr for a touchdown in the closing seconds.

Then there was the 16-13 Super Bowl loss to the Colts in 1971 when Jim O’Brien kicked the game-winning a 32-yard field goal, again in the closing seconds. There also were two Super Bowl losses to the Pittsburgh Steelers, one in 1976 and the other in 1978. The 1976 loss came by a 21-17 score with the Cowboys in the Pittsburgh end of the field throwing into the end zone on the final play looking to steal a victory. The 1978 loss was again competitive with the Cowboys again coming out on the short end, 35-31. Hall of Fame tight end Jackie Smith dropped a touchdown pass in the Pittsburgh end zone in that game.

“We lost a couple to Green Bay that could have been our Super Bowls and our championships,” Cowboys middle linebacker Lee Roy Jordan said. “We lost a couple to Pittsburgh that could have been our Super Bowls and our championships. We made them (Steelers) the team of the century.”

And to the victor go the spoils. The Steelers have nine players enshrined in the Hall of Fame from a team that won four Super Bowls in the 1970s. The Cowboys have seven players enshrined from that era – and two of them collected their busts as senior candidate after-thoughts (Bob Hayes and Rayfield Wright).

Had the Cowboys won one of those two evenly-played Green Bay games and/or one of those two evenly-played Pittsburgh games, they’d undoubtedly would have a more sizable contingent in Canton.

Wide receiver Drew Pearson and safety Cliff Harris are the only two members of the 1970s NFL all-decade first team not enshrined in Canton. Second-team all-decade performers OT Ralph Neely and DE Harvey Martin have never been discussed as finalists, and linebackers Chuck Howley and Jordan also deserved better fates.

Jordan was a great college player who became a great pro player. He was a first-team All-America at Alabama in 1962 who was named the MVP of the Orange Bowl in his final college game when he made 31 tackles against Oklahoma. He became the sixth overall pick of the 1963 draft by the Cowboys and that summer played on the College All-Star team that upset the world-champion Green Bay Packers.

Jordan stepped in at weakside linebacker for the Cowboys as a rookie and then moved to the middle in 1966 after Jerry Tubbs retired. Jordan went to five Pro Bowls and retired as the franchise’s all-time leading tackler with 1,236 in his 14-year career. He also came up with a whopping 50 takeaways on 32 interceptions and 18 fumble recoveries. Ray Lewis is the only middle linebacker in NFL history with more career takeaways (51).

Jordan once intercepted three Ken Anderson passes in one quarter.

“I was always hustling to be around the ball, being there when things happened, being close enough to make a reaction – to jump on a fumble or clean up on a tackle,” Jordan said. “Being in the vicinity to help my teammates make plays was always the most important thing to me.”

What’s most impressive about Jordan’s productivity is his size – or lack of it. He stood in the middle of the Dallas “Doomsday” defense at just 6-1, 220 pounds — hardly the prototype in an era when Hall-of-Famers Dick Butkus was playing at 245 and Ray Nitschke at 235. Yet Jordan was the leading tackler on units that led the NFL in run defense five times in seven seasons (1966-72) and led the NFC an additional time (1971). And that was during an era when football was played on the ground, not in the air.

“Our run defense was the catalyst to our success,” Jordan said. “That was our primary goal every week, every season – stop the run — because it was a much more of a running league back then than it has been the last 25-30 years. We took great pride in shutting down and controlling some of the great runners in the league.”

And the Cowboys were successful, winning 66.1 percent of their games during the Jordan era. But he had the misfortune of having a career that ran almost concurrently with that of Butkus. It’s difficult to make Pro Bowls and All-Pro teams when Butkus was penciled in as the NFL/NFC middle linebacker every year from 1965-72.

Twice Butkus was named the NFL’s Defensive Player of the Year, and he was voted to the NFL all-decade teams of both the 1960s and 1970s. Twice Jordan intercepted six passes in a single season, the final time in 1975 on a Super Bowl team. And he didn’t even make the Pro Bowl that season.

The presence of Butkus and Nitschke didn’t leave much acclaim for the other talented middle linebackers of that era. Tommy Nobis, Bill Bergey, Mike Curtis and Jordan all were multiple Pro Bowl selections who remain on the outside looking in at Canton. Jordan has been enshrined in the College Hall of Fame, however.

“I’ve tied myself to college football more strongly and identified with it more than I do with the pros,” Jordan said. “The NFL seems to be driven a lot more on individual accomplishments. The colleges are the old `team’ concept. When the team wins, everybody wins. Sometimes it’s not quite that way in the pros any more.”

1. February 28, 2017

Yes – Lee Roy Jordon deserves to be in the HOF , I think Randy Gradishar should get in 1st though. Easley getting in this year as a senior candidate was a slap in the face to both these guy’s , Easley had a shortened career and was never a HOF finalist and played after both these guys. It makes you really , really wonder about the Senior Committee.

• bachslunch
February 28, 2017

I don’t agree that Easley’s getting elected was a “slap in the face” to anyone. He was arguably the best safety not in (4/5/80s and reportedly looks excellent via film study) — and at a position that is badly under-represented in the HoF, which is not the case with MLBs from the 60s-70s. Short career or no, I think he was very highly deserving.

I too wonder about the Senior Committees nominations in many instances lately (Goldberg, E. Thomas, Stabler, Little, LeBeau), but not in this case.

• Joseph Wright
February 28, 2017

What’s questionable about Stabler? It’s questionable that he did not get in earlier–definitely earlier than Bob Griese, who was GIVEN Stabler’s spot in 1990. Great used car salesman job, Edwin Pope!

• bachslunch
February 28, 2017

Stabler’s stats adjusted for era in rankings I’ve seen are below what’s considered usual HoF level — unless you have 2 or more title wins (Layne, Griese, Bradshaw) — with the sole exception of Namath, who arguably has more narrative stuck to his candidacy than anyone, and isn’t a good HoF choice either. Stabler’s one title and level of adjusted stats are about at the level of Joe Theismann and Charlie Conerley, who nobody’s breaking down the door to induct.

• February 28, 2017

If you don’t think Namatah belongs in HOF you don’t understand what an HOF is. Namath was not only a great QB and winner of the mot important SB yet played, he was a historic figure whose signing kept the AFL in business and ultimately beganthe process of forcing the merger. History, and your importance to it, counts.

• Joseph Wright
February 28, 2017

Don’t sweat it, RB. This guy probably thinks Wes Welker was better than Paul Warfield, even with the “era-adjusted numbers.” LMAO,SMH.

• Joseph Wright
February 28, 2017

I can see you read the Cliff Notes (On-Paper Statistics: Lazy Man’s Observation) of Stabler’s career. Try reading the whole book and every chapter next time. Theismann nor Connerly have any history-making highlights in the NFL Film library. Stabler has several (No, Theismann’s career-ending play at the hands of Lawrence Taylor doesn’t count). Reply to me on my email, because after all, this is L.R. Jordan’s story not Snake’s.

• February 28, 2017

Nothing. Not one thing.

2. bachslunch
February 28, 2017

Agreed that Lee Roy Jordan (2/5/none) has a case about like Tommy Nobis’s (2/5/60s), though he does have more career length than Nobis. I agree that both should wait for Randy Gradishar (4/7/none) to get in first. Also think more OLBs from the era need to be elected first (Howley, Baughan, and Brazile for sure, maybe also Fortunato, Grantham, and Forester) as that position is still not well represented in the HoF and MLB is heavily so. Would be fine with Jordan and Nobis getting in if that happens.

3. February 28, 2017

Yes , Easley deserved to get in the HOF , Yes the safety position is vastly under represented , But No way No how should he have gotten into the HOF before Randy Gradishar period!!!!! The fact that the Broncos are still waiting for that 1st Defensive Player to get into the HOF is amazing beyond words after (8 SB’s) Gradishar should have never had to wait to be a Senior Candidate period!!! He should have made it in Long , Long Ago!

• bachslunch
February 28, 2017

If the overriding criterion is to get in the deserving Senior candidate who has been waiting the longest, the top 7 biggest player injustices would more or less be in descending order: Lavvie Dilweg, Duke Slater, Verne Lewellen, Ox Emerson, Mac Speedie, Al Wistert, and Riley Matheson. All have strong HoF cases and played back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.

But definitely agree that Gradishar should have been elected long ago. There are just way too many deserving Seniors out there.

4. bachslunch
February 28, 2017

Ron: Re Namath, there’s no question his HoF case is very heavily narrative based, maybe more so than any other member of the PFHoF. I’m a big Hall guy, but I’m not sold on the notion that narrative should push a player into the HoF if his more tangible arguments aren’t especially strong. Not everybody sees it that way, of course. By numbers adjusted for era, Namath’s regular season stats just aren’t especially impressive. He only won one title, but it was indeed the one that established the AFL as on a par with the NFL. Is it enough to make up the difference? Perhaps, but not sure on that one.

Sure, I can see why he’s in. But there’s also a reasonable argument to make that says he wasn’t an especially strong choice.

• Joseph Wright
March 1, 2017

“Numbers,” “Numbers,” “Numbers.” It is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame. SMH.

• bachslunch
March 1, 2017

Joseph, it’s not clear to me what you think HoF induction criteria should be. I prefer to use objective means, and prefer a combination of

-postseason honors, especially for non skill positions (1st team all pro selections/pro bowls/all decade teams)
-stats used in good context for skill position players
-good quality film study like that found at Ken Crippen’s website, if available

for this purpose.

Just curious: are you a Raiders fan?

• Joseph Wright
March 1, 2017

My criteria is this: There are four standards that are in play to be a Hall of Famer. If you can meet two of the four you are a HOFer.

Criteria 1) Was Player X a standard bearer? Was he considered the best or in the argument for being the best in the league? Did he lead the league in a favorable category(s) significant to his position (In the case of receivers, multiple times)? Did he establish records? Did those records stand for at least five years, are you listening Art Monk (If the record falls a season later, that’s an indictment–BIG TIME. Are you listening, Cris Carter)? Was he a DOMINATOR en route to his career numbers (milestones were accomplished in 10-12 years: Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Walter Payton, Reggie White) or was he an ACCUMULATOR (milestones reached because he stayed WAY past his prime–Emmitt and Bruce Smith, Vinny Testaverde) to acquire numbers greater than TRUE all-time greats. For Dominators, think Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, O.J. Simpson, Walter Payton, Reggie White, Dan Marino, Eric Dickerson, “Night Train” Lane, Lester Hayes, Mark Gastineau.

Criteria 2) Was Player X a revolutionary? Did he change the way the game or his position was played? Did he influence future generations of great players by his new style of play? Were rules changed because of his dominance? Think Gale Sayers, Fran Tarkenton, “Deacon” Jones, Lawrence Taylor, Randall Cunningham, Jack Tatum, Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, Lester Hayes.

Criteria 3) Impact on playoff history. Did Player X have a memorable playoff moment/game/play that helped his team win? Did he turn the balance of power or dethrone a defending champion with his play in a playoff game? Was he a key, vital contributor to championship teams? Was he clutch? Think Jerry Kramer, Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, L.C. Greenwood, Dave Casper, Kellen Winslow, Lester Hayes, Dwight Clark, Drew Pearson, Joe Jacoby, Art Shell, Lynn Swann.

Criteria 4) Honors. How many times was he named All-Pro? How many Pro Bowls was he voted into by his peers and coaches throughout the league (Yes, I understand. Last-minute Pro Bowl invitations don’t count. Sorry, Mike Boryla)? How many League MVPs or nationally respected awards did he receive? Think Joe Greene, Merlin Olsen, Ken Stabler, Lester Hayes, Randall Cunningham, Mark Gastineau.

Yes, I am a Raiders fan. But Steeler players, management, and fans pushed for Stabler to be in the Hall as well as Roger Staubach, Jack Youngblood, and Nick Bontaconti–BEFORE he died. Notice how Lester Hayes meets all four criteria? Does Aeneas Williams even meet my two criteria minimum? As you well know, Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus meet three. They never made the playoffs. This also works for basketball, baseball, and hockey.

• Rasputin
March 1, 2017

Emmitt Smith won 4 rushing titles, 3 Super Bowls, a Super Bowl MVP, and an NFL MVP in his first 6 seasons (the great Payton won one rushing title, for the record), and had set the single season rushing TD record. He would have still been a dominating, “TRUE all-time great” if he had retired in 1999 after 10 years with 13,963 rushing yards, 16,691 yards from scrimmage, and 147 TDs.

Bruce Smith may not have been the greatest pass rusher of all time, but he was selected first team AP All Pro 8 times, so apparently those voters, rightly or wrongly, thought he was in the argument for best at his position for a good stretch long before he set the career sack record.

I’m glad you’ve decided that numbers are useful to consider after all (among other things), but don’t just narrowly zone in on a single metric like that and assume those guys’ cases for greatness rest entirely on those famous career records.

PS – Emmitt Smith even inspired a rule change about ripping your helmet off on the field, lol, which sort of meets your #2 if you consider that a less dominant player wouldn’t have had the profile or huge number of opportunities to celebrate triumph (especially after TDs).

• bachslunch
March 2, 2017

Lots to talk about. First, it looks like we fully agree on postseason honors (all-pro, all decade, etc.). And as Rasputin rightly pointed out, it looks like you do indeed make use of stats, so there is some overlap on the “standard bearer” issue. But we disagree otherwise.

I do not subscribe to the notion of things like signature plays, because there’s too much subjectivity involved and the potential for bias and PR influence is great. And I tread very cautiously with things like revolutionary status. For me, it’s at most an enhancer for someone who I think already is HoF worthy. In fact, there are several so-called revolutionary players for whom I’m not sure that term correctly applies. Examples: Lawrence Taylor was very likely the greatest pass rushing OLB ever, but as the example of Robert Brazile shows, he wasn’t the first example, nor was he even the first with a good HoF argument. Fred Dean is in the HoF primarily because of his supposedly revolutionary status as an “Elephant” dedicated pass rusher, when in fact several players preceded him in this role (Cedrick Hardman, Claude Humphrey, Pat Toomay, Tony McGee) without the fancy term label. Any argument touting Jack Tatum’s DB hard hits as revolutionary need only look back to Dick Lane as a clear precursor, plus Cliff Harris was as hard hitting as any safety and was an exact contemporary of Tatum. And Bob Hayes was not the first speed-burner receiver in NFL history (see Harlon Hill and Ray Renfro), nor was the zone defense created to stop him (Steve Owens’s umbrella defense, created to counteract the Browns passing attack, is a zone defense in all but name). If I learned nothing else from the example of Bill James, it’s that it’s wise to examine one’s assumptions with care and be ready to revise your thinking if merited. Sometimes it is.

I also do not weigh postseason play heavily into HoF cases except where the Hall has set precedents for its use, specifically for QBs with less than elite stats who get a boost in with multiple championships (Layne, Griese, Bradshaw qualify). Non QBs with such a boost are rare and vary by position: Terrell Owens, Lynn Swann, maybe Charles Haley. Plus there were several fine players who played on mediocre to bad teams and got little to no chance in the playoffs: Dick Butkus, Gale Sayers, Roger Wehrli, Dan Dierdorf, Aeneas Williams, Morten Andersen, and Claude Humphrey among them. Unfortunately, you can’t choose your teammates, and if a player is otherwise qualified, I see no reason to hold it against them.

I’m also not a fan of crowd sourcing who should and should not get into the HoF (re the Steeler/Stabler mention). Some fandoms are notoriously aggressive about pushing players from their teams at the expense of others just as or more qualified, plus I’m not convinced most folks possess good knowledge in this area or have the discipline to obtain it. There’s no better example than Jim Marshall, who has been heavily pushed by several folks for years as a gross HoF oversight when he’s nothing of the sort.

Also not sold on the idea that a player holding a career record must have it stand for a long time to merit HoF worth. Again, you can’t control what happens after you retire. And if staying past one’s prime matters a lot in HoF arguments, how do you reconcile inducting Ken Stabler given his play with Houston and New Orleans? By the way, I agree that Vinny Testaverde has no business in the HoF; his stats adjusted for era are lousy.

Re Lester Hayes, I’m okay if he gets in but not convinced it’s a crime against humanity if he’s left out. He did play at a very high level for a few years (1980 in particular), but his honors are a little thin at 2/5/80s, plus his best level of play coincided with his stickum use. For me the biggest CB Senior snubs are Lemar Parrish (3/8/none and a fine KR) and ex-Raider Dave Grayson (6/6/allAFL and also a solid KR), with Abe Woodson (4/5/none), Bobby Boyd (4/2/60s), Louis Wright (4/4/70s), and Hayes also in the mix.

And in case you think I’m anti-Raiders or something, consider that I think both Grayson and Cliff Branch are highly HoF deserving, with Hayes and Todd Christensen deserving of a look as well.

More as time allows.

• Joseph Wright
March 2, 2017

A) Revolutionists are absolutely important because they effected change and influenced the play and players you see today. LT had a much huger impact than Robert Brazile on outside linebacker play. Are you going to tell me Andre Tippett, Derrick Thomas and Pat Swilling came out of Robert Brazile? Really? BTW, to heck with this reply board’s original intent–Lee Roy Jordan’s NEVER getting into the Hall of Fame. As for Tatum vs. Cliff Harris, Tatum was definitely a revolutionary in that he was a defensive back who was compared to linebackers for his ferocious hitting. He was feared by fullbacks and tight ends. The litmus test is Lynn Swann. The Steelers’ receiver ran free, smashed Super Bowl records, and won games with Cliff Harris in the Cowboys’ secondary. He treaded cautiously, heard footsteps and was virtually a non-factor in playoff games vs Jack Tatum and the Raiders secondary.

B) “I also do not weigh postseason play heavily into HoF cases.” OH, MY GOODNESS! Get this man out of the room–NOW! Post season performances often (obviously, not always) separates the great (Stabler, Swann, Drew Pearson, Joe Greene, Reggie White, Ray Lewis, Lester Hayes) from the others. Without the postseason, you would not have documentation of who the great teams and, ultimately, the great players were. If you read my criteria again, it says “Impact on Playoff History” (Stabler, Swann, Winslow, Ray Lewis, Lester Hayes), not “being there” (Griese, Jim McMahon, Art Monk, Jim Mandich, Lee Roy Jordan, Larry Brown–the fake Super Bowl MVP means nothing to me). Re: Players on bad teams. Remember, I said if Player X matches 2 of the 4 criteria, he’s in. Player X won’t be penalized if his performance was high-quality (Sayers, Butkus, Simpson, Barry Sanders, Gary Barbaro).

C) Length of time record stands. The longer a record stands shows how high Player X set the bar (Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Night Train Lane–14 INTs in one season, Dickerson’s 2,105 yards in one season). In 1994, the NFL puts restrictions on the bump-and-run rules, Cris Carter catches 122 passes in 1994, then Herman Moore catches 123 the very next year and I’m supposed to call CC’s performance “great?” Please. And, no, I’m not saying Timmie Smith should be in the HOF because his 206 rushing yards in the Super Bowl record still stands 30 years later.

D) The Lester Hayes debate has always fascinated me. He was elected to–by his peers and opposing coaches–five consecutive Pro Bowls and during that time in the ’80s was considered by many–not just Raiders fans–the best coverage man in all of football. Deion Sanders claims him as an inspiration. Yet he is knocked because he wore stickum, which was LEGAL at the time. Clarification: Hayes had 19 INTS in 21 games in 1980-81 (regular season, postseason, Pro Bowl). In the immediate off-season the substance was banned–and he made four more consecutive Pro Bowls. What’s more, he gained an ally in Mike Haynes and spearheaded (with Marcus Allen on offense) another Super Bowl run, shutting down Art Monk (1 catch) without the sticky stuff on football’s biggest stage. Fred Biletnikoff (who introduced Hayes to stickum) is revered for wearing the sticky stuff (for his entire career, by the way) AND his pass catching while Hayes is almost reviled for wearing stickum and his coverage is looked at cynically. When the sticky stuff was banned, he continued to shut down his side and dominate. And to be fair, the INTs came down not only because he was without stickum but because QBs were reluctant to throw his way–like Night Train Lane. Biletnikoff and Hayes both used stickum legally: One to catch passes, the other to pick them off. What’s the difference? The motives and actions are interchangeable. Right?

E) Great players playing past their prime happens all the time (Namath, Stabler, Favre, Rice). These players, if they have established them (within or near their prime), may even pad their record (Walter Payton, Rice, Favre). I have no problem with that because it is THEIR record to pad. What I don’t like is when players play WAY past their prime to break a record or move into the top ten or five (Bruce Smith, Emmitt Smith, Vinny Testaverde). That bastardizes the narrative of the game’s history and younger people who are given the keys to sustain the chronicling of the game may give undeserved anointing to someone unworthy. Don’t you remember, two years ago when Testaverde was ridiculously nominated for the Hall of Fame. No doubt because some uninformed kid looked at the “numbers” and saw that he threw two more TD passes than Joe Montana. “Wow, he must have been great.” Jeez!

• Rasputin
March 2, 2017

The 1977 Broncos passed for 217 yards in beating the Raiders in the AFC Championship game. Dallas held them to 35 yards passing in the Super Bowl. Cliff Harris knocked Rick Upchurch unconscious that game, something he did to a lot of receivers over the years, so I’m unimpressed with your cherry-picked “litmus test”. HoF safety Larry Wilson said, “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.”

They called him “Captain Crash” for a reason.

• Joseph Wright
March 3, 2017

Cherry-picking? I saw where you got the “testimonial” from Larry Wilson and the undeserved SB XII knockout of Rick Upchurch: http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2015/6/6/8739257/cowboys-midsummer-madness-round-one-cliff-harris-vs-nate-newton. A fan reply? How weak are you? For the record, it was “Hollywood” Henderson who knocked him out, not Harris. In the Sports Illustrated 1984 NFL Preview issue, former Broncos assistant coach Myrel Moore recalled the time when Upchurch was asked to run a slant pattern against the Raiders and the receiver replied, “Uh-uh. I’m not going in there,” because of Jack Tatum. Additionally, Tatum among other things once KO’ed nine players in one season–documented by both Who’s Who in Football (1974) and The Complete Handbook of Pro Football (1978). “Captain Crash” was a Cowboys nickname (local). “The Assassin” was Tatum’s NATIONAL nickname. Ronnie Lott, Ken Easley, and Steve Atwater were inspired by Jack Tatum. In fact, Atwater’s nickname was “The Smiling Assassin.” Tatum impacted the game FAR more than Cliff Harris. His omission from the ’70s All-Decade Team is purely political (Raiders association; unfortunate paralysis of Darryl Stingley).

• bachslunch
March 3, 2017

So let’s see. Bruce Smith and Emmitt Smith do not deserve to be in the HoF because they played a few years past their prime, while Walter Payton and Brett Favre do even though they also played a few years past their prime — and how well they played before their decline phase apparently doesn’t matter because one was padding his own record while the others were chasing one. Jack Tatum is an innovator and revolutionary because he was a hard hitting DB, even though Dick Lane preceded him and Cliff Harris was his nearly exact contemporary. This is precisely why I do not like using subjective criteria of this sort as an important part of deciding PFHoF worth. It’s far too easy to do this kind of intellectual fudging and justify it as legitimate.

And if we’re talking “revolutionary,” I think one can certainly argue that Robert Brazile is and Lawrence Taylor is not. The OED definition of the word is “radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.” and there’s no question both players were accomplished pass rushing OLBs and that Brazile’s career predates Taylor’s. The point was “revolutionary,” not “greatest ever,” which I think we can all agree Taylor was (I’m certainly happy to substitute someone for Brazile who had such a role before he did, if someone like that exists – feel free). To say otherwise is to ignore NFL history and confuse the two terms. In fact, not all “revolutionaries” are even in the HoF nor do they deserve to be; best I can tell, Harlon Hill was the first real speed-merchant WR in the NFL, but injuries regrettably cut his Hall-bound career short.

Re playoff success and the HoF: as said before, this has never consistently been a deal-breaker in either direction from membership except perhaps the QBs I mentioned earlier. In fact, better than one-quarter of HoF QBs never won a title (Tittle, Tarkenton, Jurgensen, Fouts, Moon, Marino, Kelly). Sure, plenty of HoFers were excellent in the playoffs, but they got in because of their regular season play and irrespective of their postseason play, except for the six examples I listed earlier. If you don’t like it, feel free to bring it up with the HoF, but that’s clearly been their practice.

Re Hayes: his honors profile is 2/5/80s, which is actually kind of thin compared to other HoF DBs — though like I said, I won’t complain too awful much if he gets in. I’d have to research it, but I don’t remember there being too many HoF DBs who went to five or fewer pro bowls or had two or fewer 1st team all pro selections. In fact, those honors are closer to DB HoF mistakes Emmitt Thomas (2/5/none) and Dick LeBeau (0/3/none) than anyone else. I would also like to see confirmation (that is, good quality documented film study evidence) that Hayes was the best cover corner of his time, especially since he was a contemporary of Mike Haynes. Maybe he was, but given some of the eccentric positions you have, I’m very reluctant to take your word for it.

Fact is, the Joseph Wright Pro Football Hall of Fame is welcome to have whatever standards it wants. But given its membership, the PFHoF’s standards in Canton don’t necessarily coincide with yours.

More as time allows.

• Joseph Wright
March 3, 2017

Like an ant at a nudist colony, I don’t know where to begin. Bruce Smith was essentially Dexter Manley with a bigger mouth (and that’s saying A LOT!) playing in a weak AFC. So he got to be the “big fish in a small pond.” When he was matched up against the NFC East offensive lines in four straight Super Bowl losses, BS–appropriate initials–was exposed BIG TIME. These were OLs that Reggie White consistently dominated, against the pass AND the run, on a yearly basis with the Philadelphia Eagles. Four consecutive times, Smith was knocked on his backside, flat on his back, all the while lying to anyone who would listen, saying he was better than Reggie White. Then, he stays five years after White retires to get the sacks he needs to “break” the record. Disgraceful. Thankfully, people outside of Buffalo aren’t buying into, dare I say it, BS.

Emmitt Smith was a functional running back benefiting from a great, overpowering OL. Put Herschel Walker or Barry Sanders in that spot and the Cowboys have the same success–or better. And Payton’s record falls years before Emmitt turned the trick.

Revolutionary is one who is radically different and influences change that becomes standard. Lawrence Taylor did that. Robert Brazile did not. No one ever said “Lawrence Taylor is another Robert Brazile.” Robert Brazile was not revolutionary, or even a pioneer. The first Pro Bowl blitzing LB was Dave Robinson with the Packers but he–nor Brazile– didn’t open the floodgates for blitzing LBs like LT did.

Night Train Lane was a hard-hitting corner but he is more noted as a revolutionary, shutdown corner and pass thief. Tatum opened the floodgates for hard-hitting safeties: Ronnie Lott, Kenny Easley, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, Brian Dawkins, Troy Polamalu etc. You’re telling me those guys came out of…Cliff Harris? OK, ok. And Kam Chancellor comes from Dick Anderson. LOL!! And I’M eccentric?

Just because Player X was the first doesn’t make him a revolutionary. Pioneer, yes. Revolutionary, no. A pioneer (Dave Robinson) is the first who opposes or is different from a standard (Andy Russell). A revolutionary (LT) changes the standard (Jack Ham) to a new standard (Derrick Thomas).

In Don Heinrich’s Pro Preview Magazine (a respected football publication that came from NY–that’s the East) that came out from 1981-1993, Heinrich (a former NY Giant backup QB) would rank the top 10 at every position. In the years 1980-84, he ranked Hayes ahead of Haynes four straight years. Yes, Haynes’ time as a top-ranked corner was longer than Hayes’. However, during Hayes’ five-year Pro Bowl run, many people had him ranked as the top corner, higher than even Haynes. As far as the ’80s All-Decade corner rankings are concerned, the HOF writers are covering for their mistake on the ’70s team. The CBs were: Willie Brown, Jimmy Johnson, Louis Wright, and Roger Wherli. NO WAY Wherli was a better ’70s CB than Mel Blount. Ridiculous. And Mel Blount was not as dominant in the ’80s as Lester Hayes. Frank Minnifield getting more ’80s votes than Hayes is absurd.

My HOF DOES have standards. You just refuse to look at the truth. The four criteria holds up. If a guy meets two of the four, he’s in. Based on “numbers,” impact on playoff history, and honors–thanks to the Great Wall of Dallas– sure, put Emmitt Smith in. Even though Roger Craig, Chuck Foreman, and Edgerrin James were better backs. Same with BS–although L.C. Greenwood, Harvey Martin, and Dexter Manley had greater, more favorable impacts on playoff history.

By the way, way to duck my stickum question regarding Hayes vs. Biletnikoff.

• bachslunch
March 3, 2017

What about the phrase “More as time allows” don’t you understand? Re stickum use, it was legal during all of Fred Biletnikoff’s career, but was outlawed during Hayes’s playing days, in 1981. In 1980, Hayes was DPOY and named 1st team all pro by five organizations. After that, he was named 1st team all pro by only one organization each over a four year span, in 1981 by Sporting News, 1983 by Pro Football Weekly, and in 1984 by Pro Football Writers. Still good, but a dropoff in level of play nonetheless. And yes, I realize I made a mistake earlier in counting honors for Hayes — that’s 4/5/80s, which is better than I remembered, and makes his a far stronger HoF case. Happy to correct myself when I’m wrong.

Re Bruce Smith. You’re confusing pro bowls, which are conference limited, and 1st team all pro selections, which can come from anywhere in the NFL. And Smith was named a 1st team all pro nine times. This isn’t Ruben Brown we’re talking, who thanks to being the third best guard in a conference not deep at the position, ended up with honors of 0/9/none. Your description of Smith as “Dexter Manley with a bigger mouth” is indefensible (Manley’s 1/1/none profile is light years behind Smith’s 9/11/80s90s).

Re the CBs on the all-70s team: if we look at 1st team all pro and pro bowl selections during that decade, the odd man out is definitely not Roger Wehrli. It’s Louis Wright. Numbers: Wehrli (5/7), Brown (4/4), Johnson (3/4), Blount (3/4), Wright (2/2). Wright has the misfortune to straddle his honors evenly across two decades, a problem shared by several players. But I agree, Blount is a better choice for the 70s team than the 80s.

More as time allows.

• Rasputin
March 3, 2017

LOL! For the record I wrote that “fan reply”, and as you can see it was sourced with a link that at the time led to an article. That website has since changed but you can find the quote online elsewhere, since your point is presumably that it may just be made up. Here are a Dallas Morning News article and 2008 press release:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=93345

For you to google that quote and only spend a couple of seconds trying to figure out where I got it before leaping to the wrong conclusion was lazy and weak on your part.

You’re completely wrong about Super Bowl XII. Harris knocked out Upchurch. Youtube’s time specific linking doesn’t seem to be working today, but skip to 1:54:40 and see it for yourself.

Pat initially wrongly credits Mark Washington with the hit because he was sort of hanging around on the screen at the end, but you can clearly see from the live shot and replay that Harris (#43) delivers the blow by himself and Upchurch is on the ground a while. Thomas Henderson isn’t even in the shot. “Dick Anderson”, lol? Thank you for confirming that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

You’re a Raiders fan and a blowhard, but it’s almost endearing that you feel this is just about who “inspired” a couple of kids coming up. Tatum benefited from some of that Raiders hype, no question, but I’m quoting Hall of Fame contemporaries and could add coaches and media analysts, and plenty of kids were inspired by both players.

Look, no one denied Tatum was a hard hitter, but Harris was a hard hitter AND great in coverage, and has a better claim to that revolutionary combination. He analyzed opponents to find their weaknesses. Harris was more prominent and a better player. Sports Illustrated Paul Zimmerman (Dr Z) called Harris the best hitter/cover combo guy ever.

In fact Harris was the FS on the SI All Time Dream Team in 1997, and is the aforementioned Dr Z’s all time team FS.

Some bonus for fun:

“Perhaps what made Harris notorious was his hard-hitting, knockout play for which there were no official statistics. According to Waters, who played in the Cowboys defensive backfield with Harris from 1970-81, the two had a “mystery stat” of how many times Harris knocked out the best opposing player Dallas head coach Tom Landry said the defense had to key on that particular week.

“We went through it and Cliff’s record was seven games in a row where he would knock out the one player that Coach Landry would put in the game plan and we would have to pay attention and neutralize this player,” Waters said. “Well, Cliff would do a little bit more than neutralize them. He would put them into another zip code.””

http://www.wfaa.com/sports/cowboys-great-cliff-harris-was-more-than-just-captain-crash/367443015

• Rasputin
March 3, 2017

Your anti-Emmitt Smith comments are even funnier than your faceplants about the safeties. The low brow myths you repeat confirm that you’re just a shallow glance guy who’s actually guilty of some of what you’ve falsely accused Bachslunch of. With the RBs you’re still all about the career yardage “record”….the “numbers” you bemoaned earlier….arguing Smith down by claiming he wouldn’t have that “record” if Sanders had played longer and giving his O-line all the credit. That’s grade school level commentary. But the kicker is when you ludicrously claim guys like Chuck Foreman, Roger Craig, and Edgerrin James were better backs.

First, Emmitt Smith was the best RB in the country in both high school and college. Did the same offensive line follow him throughout his life? Only one member of the “Great Wall of Dallas” is in the HoF, and Larry Allen didn’t even show up until after Smith had already won 3 rushing titles. Jim Brown’s line was full of HoFers; go look it up. And yet you hypocritically cite him as an “all time great” in supposed contrast to Emmitt Smith.

Second, while the Cowboys O-line did eventually become great, what did the Great Wall of Dallas accomplish between Walker’s departure and Smith arriving, when most of their pieces were already in place? Answer – not much. Emmitt rushed for almost 1,000 yards as a rookie on a losing team and won his first NFL rushing title the following season.

What happened in 1993 when Jerry Jones thought like you did and refused to pay Smith what he wanted, prompting a contract hold out? They started 0-2, a fact celebrated by Bills fans with signs after that second game (which would prove hilariously ironic at the season’s end). Poor Derrick Lassic couldn’t do anything behind the “Great Wall of Dallas”. So they signed a deal with Smith, who came in and led them on a long winning streak. He won the rushing title again despite missing the first two games. Then he secured home field advantage in the finale against the Giants when he carried the team despite a separated shoulder. Then, with Aikman still suffering the effects of a concussion, he led the team’s comeback in Super Bowl 28 and was the easy MVP choice for the game. He was also named NFL MVP for the season, and there has never been a clearer choice.

I actually don’t necessarily completely disagree with you about Sanders. Smith did win 4 rushing titles while he and Sanders were both in their primes (Sanders won once in that span), and Sanders might have declined rapidly after his mid to late 90s burst, so we don’t know for sure, but it’s possible that both of these statements could be true:

1. Barry Sanders would have the career yardage record if he had played as long as Emmitt Smith.

2. Emmitt Smith was a better RB than Barry Sanders.

Emmitt Smith was more physical and consistent than Sanders, especially in his prime. Opposing players talked about how much it hurt to have to tackle him over and over in a game. His most important contributions weren’t those long highlight runs you see on youtube, though he had his share of those, but all those tough 4-8 yard gains he got that kept the chains moving. That’s how your win championships. Standard deviation of gains, though it’s almost never mentioned, should be considered an important complement stat to total yards and even yards per gain. Imagine a RB who gains 150 yards but mostly does it in 8 big carries out of 30 total. That leaves a lot of unproductive plays. His team will be punting a lot. Now imagine a RB who gains 150 yards but gets exactly 5 yards a carry on all 30 carries. If you’re gaining at least 5 yards on every carry your team can’t be stopped, barring a turnover. That’s the value of consistency.

By contrast Sanders was a home run hitter. He had the sensationalistic highlight runs, but he also holds the NFL career record for negative plays, and his playoff record was dismal while Smith rewrote chunks of the postseason record books.

The O-line excuse is crap. You’re wrong about the Cowboys doing better with Sanders. He didn’t fit their system as well as Smith. Aside from the fact that Sanders’ line is underrated and included Lomas Brown, a 7 time Pro Bowler, the Lions became a spread team and those open spaces better suited Sanders’ more scat back style. With Sanders instead of Smith maybe the Cowboys win one Super Bowl, but not three.

Sanders couldn’t have done what Emmitt did in 1993, carrying the team in the brutally strong NFC East against ferocious defenses in a power run system, separated shoulder and all. He couldn’t have been as dominant as Smith routinely was in inclement weather. Of course both Smith and Sanders are all time greats regardless of which one someone prefers, but the others you listed aren’t.

Maybe you only watched the Cowboys in the late 90s after Smith prolonged his career by altering his playing style, if at all, but at his peak Smith had the best combination of power, balance, agility, and vision any RB ever has. His movement was extremely efficient. He almost never fumbled. He had deceptive speed, which is why he had so many long runs. He was extremely durable. He was also an excellent receiver and the best pass blocking RB I’ve ever seen.

Regarding the RB/O-line question, as with Jim Brown, it took both being great to accomplish what no one else ever has and possibly never will again. I don’t care how good your O-line is, you don’t dominate the way Emmitt Smith did unless you’re one of the greatest of all time.

• Rasputin
March 3, 2017

My reply correcting your blatant errors on the Cliff Harris subject is “awaiting moderation” because of its links to supporting evidence, Joseph Wright, but stay tuned.

• Joseph Wright
March 4, 2017

I’ll be here waitin’, junior. (YAWN)

• bachslunch
March 4, 2017

Note also that the first pro bowl blitzing OLB doesn’t appear to have been Dave Robinson. In fact, things appear to be more complicated on this question in general. I asked about this at the pfraforum yesterday and got a really good reply from John Turney, as follows:

“It wasn’t Dave Robinson.

“Players who got quite a few sacks as OLBs: Wayne Walker, Matt Hazeltine, Chris Hanburger. The thing is, they had varying totals year-to-year. All these were weak side linebackers, and it was a trend in the 1960s to dog that player and all of them were in 4-3 defenses. And really, the “rush backer” is usually associated with 3-4 defenses. The Oilers when they went to the 3-4 did have Brazile in the 2nd year, but in 1984 Ted Washington had 11 sacks. He is the first of the 3-4 LBs to have double digit sacks. In the 4-3 Walker and Hazeltine had double digit sacks at least once. The first OLBer to have a monster year was Joel Williams in 1980 when he had 16. Lawrence Taylor didn’t surpass that until 1984.

“If you go way back, in the old 5-3 defenses of the 1950s, the DE was more akin to Lawrence Taylor. The best was Len Ford, who was most of the time in a 2-point stance. He was more of a traditional DE when they moved to a 4-3 defense.

“So it’s not one of those easy answers, it’s looking at the film and seeing similarities in schemes over generations.”

I think what we’re seeing here is a long running issue containing players of varying degrees of accomplishment as well as different wrinkles on actual expression. And I’d argue that’s true of hard hitting DBs as well as outside pass rushers. To single this or that player out as deserving of special recognition seems arbitrary — Len Ford is a HoFer after all and I don’t see that he’s undeserving.

• bachslunch
March 4, 2017

More things.

The point was not that the standards for your personal HoF are inconsistent. The point was that the priorities for your HoF membership aren’t consistently in line with Canton’s. If they were, we’d see more than six players with marginal careers and a playoff boost in the real HoF.

If we’re citing experts on coverage corners, Paul Zimmerman said in an SI article that the two best cover corners he ever saw were Jim Johnson and Deion Sanders (he also listed Dick Lane and Willie Brown as the two best bump and run types), then went on to describe what he called the “three great technicians”: Mike Haynes, Roger Wehrli, and Albert Lewis. He doesn’t mention Hayes. And when did Don Heinrich morph into “many people?”

And as the cited post by Turney suggests, the whole “revolutionary” thing looks to be a tough question to answer, and designating someone specific isn’t immune to arbitrary cherry picking.

More as time permits and I feel like it.

• Joseph Wright
March 4, 2017

Good ol’ Dr. Z, huh? The same man who fervently campaigned to keep Stabler out of the Hall of Fame. The same “expert” who (in 2001) said, “the two best defensive ends I’ve ever seen were Deacon Jones and Rich Jackson,” leaving out Reggie White in the process. Hayes should see Dr. Z’s snub as FULL validation that he was a true Hall of Famer. Oh, I’ve got more.

• bachslunch
March 5, 2017

Hey, you pick your experts and I’ll pick mine. Dr. Z was known and respected as extremely knowledgeable on film study. Feel free to ask Clark, Ron, or Rick their opinion of his abilities on the matter, as I’m sure they were on the HoF selection committee when he was. And any arguments that he may have anti-Oakland bias would need to explain away the fact that of the seven CBs mentioned, two (Brown, Haynes) were Raiders.

• Joseph Wright
March 6, 2017

I never said Z was anti-Raider. He was anti-Stabler. It is clearly documented by Zimmerman himself that he stood up and said when Stabler was nominated in 1990, “You cannot allow this man into the Hall of Fame.” He then based it on his unfounded allegations that Stabler got another Hall of Fame committee writer, Bob Pedecky, arrested for drug possession and this weak criticism that Stabler didn’t seem upset whenever he threw an interception. It was personal, unprofessional, and had nothing to do with the quarterback’s contribution to the game (Super Bowl Title; League MVPs; 2X league leader in TDs; NFL history’s only 60 percent passer until rule changes handcuffed defenders; thwarting two potential 3Peats of great dynasties–Dolphins, Steelers).

Ron Borges was with me an the cases of Stabler AND Lester Hayes so you indicted yourself by bringing him up: “..ask Clark, Ron, or Rick about his (Dr. Z’s) abilities, blahzay, blahzay, blah..”

Borges wrote a State Your Case piece fully endorsing Hayes for the Hall of Fame. The ban on stickum may have led to a dropoff in INTs (though QBs not throwing in that direction was the bigger factor), but not as you inaccurately say “a dropoff in performance.” So, instead of copping out and saying, “And yes, I realize I made a mistake earlier in counting honors for Hayes — that’s 4/5/80s, which is better than I remembered, and makes his a far stronger HoF case. Happy to correct myself when I’m wrong,” try saying, “Thank you, Joseph Wright, for correcting me, Bachslunch, when I was wrong. Again.”

The problem is, Bachslunch, you further showed your poor talent/performance evaluations of CBs with this statement: “Re the CBs on the all-70s team: if we look at 1st team all pro and pro bowl selections during that decade, the odd man out is definitely not Roger Wehrli. It’s Louis Wright. Numbers: Wehrli (5/7), Brown (4/4), Johnson (3/4), Blount (3/4), Wright (2/2). Wright has the misfortune to straddle his honors evenly across two decades, a problem shared by several players.” If your life depended on a game in the ’70s and you had to have one man cover against Paul Warfield, who would you take: Louis Wright or Roger Werli? If you say Louis Wright, I rest my case that your beloved Dr. Z and others made a huge mistake putting Werli on the All-70s team. If you’d take Werli, I would gladly give the eulogy at your funeral. If you are putting together a football team and you could only carry four CBs and those trying out are Jimmy Johnson (the player, not the coach), Willie Brown, Roger Werli, Mel Blount, and Louis Wright, who would be “the odd man out?”

I stand by my comparison of Bruce Smith to Dexter Manley. BTW, Manley was much stronger against the run than Smith. Manley’s Playoff performances in ’82, vs. Walter Payton and Jimbo Covert in ’86 and ’87, and Gary Zimmerman bear that out. Would the Redskins have won the Super Bowls in ’82 & ’87 without Manley? We KNOW the Bills got run over four straight times with “Big Bruce.” And Dr. Z’s Reggie White omission? Get back to me with your answers. LMAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 5, 2017

My comment above seems to have posted, Joseph Wright. There you go, boy.

• Joseph Wright
March 7, 2017

Of course the Cowboys would have won 3 or more Super Bowls with Sanders (or Herschel Walker, for that matter) instead of Smith. The lanes/canyons the Cowboys o-line provided for Emmitt would have opened frightening floodgates for defenses facing Barry. Once again, no one outside of Lomas Brown was a quality–much less high quality–player on that ordinary to shoddy line in Detroit during that time. And, no, Barry wasn’t running behind Lomas most of the time. Quite often, he had to improvise because a defender was already in the Lions’ backfield after Sanders took the handoff. So, of course he had negative plays. Yet he not only survived, he thrived. Barry hung up 1,800 and 2,000 seasons behind questionable blocking. Payton hung an 1,800-yard season behind crappy blocking in 1977–a 14-game season! Meanwhile, behind high-quality blocking O.J. Simpson and Eric Dickerson put up 1,800- and 2000-yard seasons. JimBrown set the standard at 1,863 in 1963. Emmitt NEVER ran for 1,800 in a season behind the greatest run blocking line ever. And, no, he wasn’t in a pass-dominated offense. Smith usually got 20-25 carries per game. And when Sanders ran for 2,053 Lomas Brown was with the Cardinals! Barry Sanders would have put up MULTIPLE 2,000-yard seasons behind the Great Wall of Dallas, including a 2,500-yard season–easily. A newly retired Eric Dickerson was aske by Chris Myers what he would do behind the Dallas front and he laughed and said, “3,000.” I was rolling myself. As for this “Jim Brown ran behind several Hall of Famers…” Outside of Gene Hickerson, who was inducted as a senior member in 2007, who are these other “several” o-linemen you speak of? And, oh, BTW, Emmitt was never the best runner in college. He never led the nation in rushing and didn’t win the Heisman. That would be Barry, Tim Brown, and Andre Ware. Speaking of Andre Ware…

Emmitt had Troy Aikman as his QB, a stud-Hall of Famer. Barry had to work with Bob Gagliano, Rodney Peete, Andre Ware, Dave Krieg, Charlie Batch, and that all-time great (it’s an absolute crime he’s not in the Hall of Fame! Shame?) Scott Mitchell.

In 1993, Gale Sayers sat down with Bob costas and discussed his career. Then Costas gave him a list of RBs and asked Sayers for a comment on each:

Jim Brown: “The best ever.” ; Emmitt Smith: “Good runner. Great offensive line.” ; Barry Sanders: “I love watching him play. He is the closest to myself.” Emmitt was GOOD. The line was GREAT. Hmmmm….

Speaking of Jim Brown, who should know a little bit about great running backs, he was a guest on the ESPN Up Close Show with Chris Myers in 1996. I remember it was ’96 because it was an election year and after being asked by Myers, Brown said he was voting for Bob Dole because his friend, Jack Kemp, was Dole’s VP running mate–but I digress. Myers asked Brown who was the best RB in the game at that time. Without hesitation, Brown said, “Barry Sanders.” Myers asked for more elaboration and Brown said, “Emmitt has a great heart and he really brings a lot to the Cowboys. But…Let me put it this way: Emmitt can play on certain teams, Barry could play for any team in any era.” Back to where you belong, junior. Lol. And I’ve never falsely accused Bachslunch of anything. However, when B-lunch is enormously wrong, B-lunch is enormously wrong.

• bachslunch
March 7, 2017

-just because you and Ron Borges happen to agree on Ken Stabler does not necessarily mean that Borges has no respect for Dr. Z’s film study capabilities and player evaluations. The HoF voters actually do disagree about various players, you know. Re Jackson, it’s no secret that Dr. Z believes that over a 3-1/2 year period, Jackson was perhaps the finest overall defensive end and pass rusher he ever saw, a sure Hall of Famer if he had had a longer playing career. In his eyes, choosing Jackson over Reggie White would appear to be a choice of the highest, if short-term, quality over very high quality longevity. And I don’t see why anyone would have a quibble over Deacon Jones being considered. That being said, I could understand if someone wanted to choose White here. Depends on how you see it.

-just because you say something, forcefully or otherwise, doesn’t necessarily make it true. In fact, you’ve been wrong on things such as Dave Robinson being the first pass rushing outside linebacker and Jack Tatum being the first important hard-hitting DB. Not surprisingly, I have no intention of accepting anything you have to say that isn’t backed up with good evidence (feel free to choose from such things as a detailed film-study critique like that found on Ken Crippen’s website, statistics for skill position players put in good context, honors profiles, and the like) — and that goes for your assertions about Roger Wehrli and Bruce Smith. As far as I’m concerned, they’re not even worth a response. Sorry, but not everything that pops into your head and rolls out of your mouth is by definition a pearl of wisdom.

-I’m not surprised by your lack of graciousness regarding my self-correction on Lester Hayes. What I remember seeing over at the Pro Football Reference website last time I checked were the unanimous 1st team all-pro selections in 1980 and the 1981 selection by Sporting News. But I’m more interested in trying to get things correct rather than being “right” all the time, so I looked again. And I changed my thoughts on the strength of Hayes’s HoF argument here accordingly — and publicly.

Will post separately regarding Dr. Z’s thoughts on Stabler, as there are links which may cause moderator delay.

Will not be online again until the weekend at the earliest because of real life commitments.

• bachslunch
March 7, 2017

Not surprisingly, you’ve garbled Dr. Z’s thoughts on Stabler. What you’re referencing comes from an article Dr. Z wrote in Sports Illustrated several years ago. Re the Padecky incident, he said:

“A few years ago, the person presenting him at the enshrinement meeting mentioned how he had “always been cooperative with the media.” My hand shot up as if it were on a spring, and I reminded this ninny about how the Snake invited Bob Padecky of the Sacramento Bee down to the Redneck Riviera to do some offseason interviewing. And when Padecky showed up, all of a sudden Kenny’s buddies on the Mobile PD found some drugs that had been planted in the writer’s car, and off he went to the joint. For a night. Then he was released with no charges filed. Yeah, Kenny will make it. After I’m morto.”

http://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/04/archives/drug-case-continues-to-trouble-stabler-still-a-suspect.html?_r=1

This is indeed an off-field issue, but it’s also not wise to tick off the folks you want to get such an honor from.

However, Dr. Z also said:

“In his prime, while it lasted, he was very accurate. Then he became consistently inaccurate. His teammates wondered why. That’s as far as I’ll take this one.”

Later in his career, Stabler’s friendship with gambler Nicholas Dudich, described by the NY Times as “a well-known New Jersey gambling figure who is an associate of the Princeton-based Simone DeCavalcante organized crime family” became, again per the NY Times, a concern to Al Davis — and, also according to the NY Times, prompted commissioner Pete Rozelle to “warn…the veteran quarterback to avoid ”undesirable elements” or be subject to disciplinary action ”up to and including suspension.” Stabler complied. Around this time, Stabler also sued the NY Times and NBC for libel over suggestions that he may have shaved points or thrown games. The case against the NY Times was dismissed, and Stabler eventually settled out of court with NBC. It’s interesting to look again at what Dr. Z wrote here given all this. Regardless, Stabler didn’t sue SI or Dr. Z for libel about the latter’s article. Make of this what you will.

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/sports/stabler-can-sign-but-is-warned.html

• Joseph Wright
March 16, 2017

Perfect validation for me against Z (enough of the “Dr.” nonsense) that, not surprisingly, you unwittingly provided me with.

“In his prime, while it lasted, he was very accurate. Then he became consistently inaccurate. His teammates wondered why. That’s as far as I’ll take this one.”

“Consistently inaccurate.” Is THAT right? From 1972-1983, Ken Stabler never completed less than 56.6 percent of his passes, including five seasons of over 60 percent. His final year with the Saints, in 1984, he completed 33 of 70 passes for a 47 percent rate, hardly a season’s worth of work, that dragged his career passing percentage barely under 60 percent. This was a QB who was regularly completing passes at a percentage rate of 60 when the majority of his career was in an era where defenders were allowed to manhandle receivers all down the field until the ball was thrown. Z’s evaluation of Stabler’s career was strictly emotional and personal, not professional and objective.

Even within that last year of 1984, he played against the eventual Super Bowl champion 49ers in San Francisco and performed so well in defeat that 49ers head coach (A Hall of Famer, by the way) Bill Walsh said, “Ken Stabler is a Hall of Fame quarterback if there ever was one.” I’ll take The Genius’ opinion over the fake “Doctor’s” opinion on football player evaluation anytime.

Speaking of football player evaluation…How long have you been stealing money as a “scout?” All that previous nonsense about my statements about Bruce Smith and Roger Werli “aren’t worth a response,” are simple, unwitting admissions by you that I am right and once again you, Bachlunch, are wrong. It’s not like I asked you to comment on a scandal or crime you committed. Guilty parties still think that “I won’t dignify that question with a response” stuff works. It does not. When they asked Stabler about the various charges against him, he said, “I had nothing to do with it whatsoever.” He had no need to be a coward and say of such comments and questions, “they’re not even worth a response”–your comment. And NBC settled out of court with Stabler, not the other way around as you–not surprisingly–inaccurately put it. The network paid Stabler money.

All I asked were three simple, non-scandalous questions on your (apparently so-called) football knowledge:

1) If your life depended on one game in which your team had to cover Paul Warfield with one corner for the full game and you had to choose between Roger Werli or Louis Wright to perform that task, who would you choose?

2) If posed with the responsibility of putting together a football team and you could only carry four cornerbacks and Willie Brown, Jimmy Johnson (the player, not the coach), Mel Blount, Roger Werli, and Louis Wright all offered their services, who is the odd man out?

3) Would the Washington Redskins have won Super Bowls in ’82 and ’87 without Dexter Manley? We know what the Buffalo Bills did in four tries with Bruce Smith.

Get back to me with those answers, Bachlunch. People on the board are watching. If you feel “they’re not even worth a response,” I will gladly take a bow and everyone reading will know I am correct–again–and you, Bachlunch, are wrong–again.

• Rasputin
March 8, 2017

All these days, Joseph Wright, and that’s what you come up with? Pathetic. You dodged almost every concrete point I made and mostly just repeated your earlier, already refuted or addressed claims. You mindlessly asserting something….like “X would have done better than Smith with the same line”….doesn’t make it true. You have to at least try to support your claim with some evidence and maybe construct a cogent argument. But I’ll respond to the few new things you’ve got:

You said: “As for this “Jim Brown ran behind several Hall of Famers…” Outside of Gene Hickerson, who was inducted as a senior member in 2007, who are these other “several” o-linemen you speak of?”

Here’s a quick rundown of O-linemen who played with Jim Brown:

Lou Groza (T) – HOF, 9 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All Pros
Gene Hickerson (G) – HOF, 6 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All Pros
Mike McCormack (T) – HOF, 6 Pro Bowls
Dick Schafrath (T) – 6 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All Pros
Jim Ray Smith (G) – 5 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All Pros
John Morrow (C) – 2 Pro Bowls
John Wooten (G) – 2 Pro Bowls
Art Hunter (C) – 1 Pro Bowl

That’s a star studded group of blockers, and remember that Emmitt Smith won 3 of his 4 rushing titles with zero HOF linemen. Brown also played with offensive standouts like these…

Paul Warfield (WR) – HOF, 8 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros (one year with Brown, anyway)
Frank Ryan (QB) – 3 Pro Bowls
Milt Plum (QB) – 2 Pro Bowls
Tommy O’Connell (QB) – 1 Pro Bowl
Ray Renfro (HB) – 3 Pro Bowls
Bobby Mitchell (FL) – HOF, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 first team All Pro

…and I won’t bother listing the great defensive players who helped the team too. Your argument that Smith was just a cog on a great team, unlike a “true All Time Great” like “Jim Brown”, falls apart, especially when one considers that in the 7 seasons before Jim Brown arrived, Cleveland won 73.6% of its games (counting playoffs) and made the playoffs all but one year. In Jim Brown’s first 7 seasons Cleveland only won 63% of its games and made the playoffs twice (4 times out of his total 9 seasons). The team won 3 NFL titles in the pre-Brown years and 1 with Brown in his next to last season.

In the 7 seasons before Emmitt Smith arrived, Dallas won 43.4% of its games and made the playoffs twice, while in Smith’s first 7 seasons Dallas won 70.1% of its games and made the playoffs every year but once, that being his rookie year where they still improved from 1-15 and being the worst team in the league to 7 – 9 and almost making the playoffs. The Cowboys won 3 Super Bowls with him.

Alone these facts don’t definitively prove that Smith was more important to his team than Brown was to his, but they sure as heck shred your shallow claim based on NO facts that Smith was merely a “functional” back uncritical to the team’s turnaround compared to a “true All Time Great” like Brown. The 1993 season alone should have settled that argument once and for all, when Dallas lost without Smith and won it all with him back.

If your assumption is that being on the best team automatically boosts a RB’s stats to the top, then why had no rushing leader ever won the Super Bowl the same year? Emmitt Smith was the first to win the rushing title and the Super Bowl in the same season. He did it three times. Since then Terrell Davis has done it once and that’s it. The question isn’t how someone like Dickerson, Sanders, or OJ Simpson could put up a monster total yardage year “despite” playing on a non-championship team, because THAT’S THE NORM.

The greatness of Aikman, Irvin, and Smith are often used by Cowboys haters to diminish whichever player the conversation is focusing on at the time. Funny how that doesn’t seem to happen with Montana/Rice or Jim Brown as shown above. The truth is that all three “triplets” were among the greatest of all time at their positions, which is why they accomplished things no other team has.

They also put team success ahead of individual stats, which DID negatively impact all their personal numbers. The Cowboys would sit on the ball and play for time of possession rather than running up points and yards. They were a balanced offense with an exceptional passing attack and power running game, which did help each other but also cut into both group’s opportunities when compared to some of the greatest units on unbalanced teams. In 1995 Smith set the NFL rushing TD record (25 TDs) rather than the yardage record (though he did win another rushing title) in part because effective passing shortened the field. He only had so far to go.

• Rasputin
March 8, 2017

You said: “Of course the Cowboys would have won 3 or more Super Bowls with Sanders (or Herschel Walker, for that matter) instead of Smith.”

Walker maybe 2 or 3 since he had so much power and versatility, but he had already used some of his prime seasons dominating the USFL and, you probably don’t know this, but Walker DID return to the Cowboys in the mid 90s, so it’s not like he wasn’t on the team.

Sanders no, for reasons already given. First, the Lions weren’t a bad team. They made the playoffs 5 out of his 10 years. He also played with offensive contributors like these:

Lomas Brown (OT) – 7 Pro Bowls (more than any Cowboys O-lineman except Larry Allen, and there from Sanders’ start while Allen didn’t arrive until after Emmitt had already established himself as the NFL’s best RB)
Kevin Glover (C) – 3 Pro Bowls
Herman Moore (WR) – 4 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All Pros
Mel Gray (KR/PR) – 4 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All Pros (field position)
David Sloan (TE) – 1 Pro Bowl (a year after Sanders retired)
Jeff Hartings (G/C) – 2 Pro Bowls and a SB championship later with the Steelers
Mike Compton (G/C) – Rock solid starter for years, would go on to be the starter for the early Patriots dynasty
Dave Fralic (G) – 4 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pros with Atlanta (played with Lions in 1993)
Rodney Holman (TE) – 3 Pro Bowls with Cincinnati, played 3 years with Lions

More guys would have made Pro Bowls if they had ever won a championship. Mark Tuinei was always a good player, but he didn’t make his first Pro Bowl until his 12th year after the Cowboys had won a couple of Super Bowls. It’s not a contrast between a great line and a terrible line, but between a line that became great for a few years and one that ranged from average to pretty good.

Sanders holds the career record for negative plays partly because his running style was wild with a lot of wasted motion and he was always passing up solid gain opportunities looking for the huge run. The homerun/low average hitter baseball analogy is apt. In the Cowboys’ power run system Sanders would have caused their offense to stall out a lot.

A RB’s prime is typically his first several years. In the 5 years from 1991-1995, when both experienced the bulk of their primes, Smith gained more yards than Sanders every year but one. Why do you think this was? The Lions were better then than they would be from 1996 on, with 4 of Sanders’ 5 playoff trips coming in the first half of the decade. He had Lomas Brown, Herman Moore, Kevin Glover and others playing with them then. Why was Smith so much more productive than Sanders over the first half of the decade, and why did Sanders explode for a couple of years in the late 90s? Did Sanders start juicing mid-decade? Or did circumstances change?

Offensive stats exploded across the NFL in the second half of the 90s due to continued rule changes. Smith wasn’t able to fully benefit from this because as a power runner his body had taken a pounding running roughshod over the league in his first several seasons. It’s amazing he was able to play as long as he did, and he had to alter his style a bit in the late 90s to do so. But Barry Sanders, with his more scat back style, hadn’t taken the same pounding and, with his speed, was able to exploit the open spaces the Lions’ spread attack produced in the more offensive friendly late 90s. Look at how Marshall Faulk went from a merely above average back to a HoF one when he left the Colts for the Rams and the wide open spaces created by their offense that were tailor made for a speedster to exploit. System matters. So does timing. What kind of season totals might Smith have put up if his rookie season was 1994 instead of 1990?

For the most part Sanders was a terrible playoff RB, while Emmitt was one of the greatest of all time. In 6 games Sanders only reached 100 yards once (they still lost that game). That was at home against Green Bay, where he romped for 169 yards. The following year at Green Bay he totaled -1 yards on 13 carries. The very next week Emmitt averaged 6.29 y/c against that same Packers team and the Cowboys cruised to a blow out win.

In his 4 playoff road games Sanders only averaged 2.8 yards/carry.

In his 6 playoff road games Smith averaged 4.5 yards/carry.

Smith got the tough yards when it mattered most.

• Rasputin
March 8, 2017

While your post is mostly baseless speculation I’m educating you with concrete facts.

In high school Smith rushed for over 8,000 yards, which ranked 2nd in the nation’s history at the time. In college, despite leaving for the NFL after his junior year, he set the Florida career rushing record, along with the university’s single season rushing record, single game record, per game average record, longest ever run, TD record, and a slew of others, all while playing on a team with almost no passing game.

In 1989 the junior Smith was a unanimous All American (meaning all the media outlets had him as a first team RB). Edgerrin James, Chuck Foreman, and Roger Craig, those lower tier guys you laughably claimed were “better backs” than Emmitt Smith, weren’t even regular All Americans. Neither was Curtis Martin for that matter.

Sometimes a player can thrive more at one level than another, but when a guy like Emmitt Smith comes along and dominates at EVERY level, you can’t dismiss that as resulting from a factor that only applies to one of those levels, like “having a great line”. He must be doing something right.

It’s funny that you’re quoting Jim Brown and Erik Dickerson as serious authorities, lol. No, playing involves a different skill set than either analyzing or coaching. Some may be great at two or all three of those things, but most players, even great ones, aren’t. Most of these players aren’t exactly rocket scientists. Dickerson was just blustering with that silly “3,000” yards comment. Without getting into specifics, he also doesn’t have the best reputation for honesty going back to his college days. Jim Brown has been a blow hard clown for decades. His “advice” as an activist, among other things, helped ruin Duane Thomas’ potential HOF career almost out of the gate. Your own anecdote about Brown voting for a presidential ticket because he knew a guy on it just shows how un-objective he is.

But I do like that you’ve resorted to comparing Emmitt Smith to guys like Jim Brown, Barry sanders, and Erick Dickerson rather than Roger Craig and the other lower tier backs you initially mentioned. The former are all time greats, like Emmitt Smith. Many analysts have observed that Smith actually has more in common with Walter Payton than anyone else. They were almost the same RB. Smith was a little stockier and more efficient in his movement. Payton had more explosive kick steps. Payton sustained excellence longer while Smith had a more dominant peak, but they were very similar in stats and style. Neither was a speed burner but they were both great all around backs with tremendous heart who were willing to block and catch.

So, little Joey, are you going to admit you were wrong about Super Bowl XII (among other things) or were you just going to slither away without commenting at all on that other topic?

• Rasputin
March 20, 2017

Since you’re apparently trying to slink away from this line of the discussion, Joseph Wright, hoping I go away and you can avoid having to man up and admit you were wrong, I’ll go ahead and post this now.

You made a big deal out of Tatum’s “Assassin” nickname being nationally known, contrasting it with what you called the “locally” known Cliff Harris’ “Captain Crash” nickname, but according to John Madden NO ONE called Tatum “Assassin” while he played.

(search for “madden on tatum’s reaction to stingley injury” and click on the NBC sports article that pops up)

That didn’t start until he wrote an autobiography with “Assassin” in the title after he had retired. At least “Crash” was something other players called Harris while was he was playing (the media added “Captain”), and not the result of a publisher’s PR campaign. Again, I’m not saying Tatum wasn’t a brutally hard hitter. I’m just showing how invalid your arguments are, and how shallow and inaccurate your grasp of these topics is since the issue of “credibility” has come up.

You also mentioned that Steve Atwater was nicknamed “Smiling Assassin”. You probably don’t know that name was given to him by his secondary coach, former Cowboys safety Charlie Waters. Waters coined that label because he happened to see Atwater reading Tatum’s autobiography one day (though in an interview Atwater actually said his hero was Ronnie Lott), and because he was often smiling off the field. The intelligent Waters was a master at dispensing nicknames and shaping narratives, though interestingly “Crash” was one he DIDN’T coin (LB Dave Edwards did).

It was Waters who decisively pushed to draft Atwater in 1989 when the Broncos coaching staff was split between him and another safety named Louis Oliver. Oliver was described as a safety who “hit like a LB”, but who also “ran like one”. Atwater was the more complete player. No doubt Charlie Waters was more influenced by his own experience with his long time secondary partner Cliff Harris than anyone else in deciding on the versatile Atwater.

• Joseph Wright
March 21, 2017

Thanks for unwittingly proving my point, Rasputin. I didn’t even know Atwater ever read JACK TATUM’s–not Cliff Harris’–book. And Atwater’s hero was Ronnie Lott? Guess who Ronnie Lott’s hero was? That’s right, Jack Tatum! Tatum is the vine and standard, NOT Cliff Harris. Tatum maintained the media–the national media–put “The Assassin” tag on him. Oh, by the way. Why didn’t Waters call Atwater “The Smiling Crash.” Way to totally omit your teammate and throw him under the bus. LMAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 20, 2017

So to recap, Joseph Wright….

– You were objectively wrong in your claim that Thomas Henderson knocked out Rick Upchurch in SB 12 (I posted video proof showing it was Cliff Harris)

– You argued that Emmitt Smith wasn’t a dominant player but just someone that hung on for a long time, only judging him based on the career rushing yardage record, possibly not knowing that Smith also won 4 rushing titles in his first 6 years, along with NFL and SB MVP awards.

– You dismissed the notion that Emmitt Smith could have been considered the best RB in college, when he was actually a unanimous All American.

– You claimed Jack Tatum’s “Assassin” nickname was “nationally known”, when actually no one called him “Assassin” while he played.

– You weren’t aware that Jim Brown had played with any HoF linemen apart from Gene Hickerson (e.g. Lou Groza and Mike McCormack, along with others with numerous Pro Bowls and HoFers at other positions).

– You obnoxiously leaped to the wrong conclusion about my source for the Larry Wilson quote calling Cliff Harris the best free safety in the game and one redefining how the position is played, without bothering to put out the modicum of effort it would have taken to see the quote is genuine.

– Despite leading off this debate by attacking Bachslunch for using “numbers, numbers, numbers”, telling him this isn’t the “Fantasy Football Hall of Fame”, you immediately began hypocritically trying to use your own cherry-picked numbers to advance your cases.

“Credibility”, lol?

• Joseph Wright
March 21, 2017

For Rasputin:

1) Fine. Cliff Harris knocked out Rick Upchurch in Super Bowl XII. Jack Tatum’s hit on Minnesota’s Sammy White in Super Bowl XI was a knockout and is a constant in NFL Films Super Bowl highlight collections. You RARELY (never?) see Harris’ hit on Upchurch. And I was rooting for the Cowboys in Super Bowl XII !
2) I’m fully aware of Emmitt Smith’s rushing titles (although in 1991 he was force-fed to get him ahead of Barry—23 more carries to get him ahead by 15 yards .625 yards per carry—embarrassing). Even with that, Barry still equaled Smith in rushing titles and never ran for less than a grand in any season of his career.
3) Smith was NEVER the nation’s best RB in college—never led the nation in rushing, never sniffed the Heisman. Those are the facts.
4) Jack Tatum was referred to nationally by the media as “The Assassin.” That is the basis of the title of his first book.
5) Jim Brown only spoke of guards Gene Hickerson and John Wooten when recalling his success as a runner in the NFL. Mike McCormack was a Hall of Fame oversite on my part. But Lou Groza made his Hall of Fame mark as a kicker, not a blocker.
6) Legit quote or not, the fact still stands: Lynn Swann ran through the Cliff Harris/Cowboys secondary with absolutely NO fear, shredding the record books and garnering MVP and Hall of Fame honors in the process. Swann played 3 Conference championship games vs. the Tatum/Raiders secondary and his best output in those games was not even half of the damage he did to the Cowboys in two Super Bowls. Swann terrorized and abused the Cliff Harris secondary of the Cowboys while Jack Tatum and the Raiders secondary flipped the script and reduced Swann to a meager whimper by terrorizing him.
7) Bachslunch looks at stats for everything. He takes a lazy Cliff Notes view of NFL History. I, unlike him, understand that stats can be misleading. However, if statistics are made in a dominant fashion—great numbers acquired in a short period of time–(Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Reggie White, Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Eric Dickerson) I will take notice. B-Lunch will say, “No, Joseph, you’re wrong. I would never credit Testaverde. His adjusted for era numbers are terrible.” I don’t need “numbers” on paper to judge Testaverde. I saw him play. He sucked. I don’t need the stats for evaluation.
8) I’ve been watching pro football intently since 1975. Emmitt Smith was a serviceable back running behind a great, dominant line. Barry Sanders was an exceptional back who put up phenomenal yardage totals behind a mediocre (save for Lomas Brown) line. Once again I will quote two Hall of Famers.
–Gale Sayers, 1993, on Emmitt Smith: “Good running back. Great offensive line.” On Barry Sanders: “I love watching him play. He the most reminds me of myself.”

–Jim Brown, 1996, on both: “Emmitt can play (well) on certain teams. Barry could play (well) on any team, in any era.”

• Rasputin
March 21, 2017

Alright, Joseph Wright….

1. Not the classiest admission of being wrong, but at least you finally grudgingly acknowledged it. Left unexplained is why you made the wrong claim with such certainty in the first place (“credibility”), unless it was because you weren’t expecting game footage evidence to be publicly available. And that Harris hit, clean in even today’s game, would make an awesome highlight (especially with the rear view slow motion replay added), but thank you for underscoring what I’ve said about the distortive impact of shallow media hype and bias on people’s perceptions. HoF decisions shouldn’t be dictated by uninformed hype or the whims of hacks at NFL Films.

2. Barry Sanders posted a record 10 consecutive 1,000 yards seasons, which Emmitt Smith broke with a record 11 such seasons, only missing 13 by a few dozen yards (despite his rookie season occurring after he was drafted by the worst team in the league), so you don’t seem to have a point with that comment. And there’s never anything “embarrassing” about winning a rushing title, lol. You also failed to address anything I said about Smith’s superior consistency and championship caliber playing style. Perhaps you don’t have the education to grasp statistical concepts beyond total yards and yards/carry (which can easily be skewed by a few big gains). One reason Emmitt had more opportunities is that he was better at keeping the chains moving and the ball in his team’s possession. That you’re reduced to scratching and clawing to try to show Sanders (as opposed to Edgerrin James, Roger Craig, or some of the others you originally mentioned) holds some sort of parity with Smith only underscores that at worst the latter is a “true all time great” in the rough ballpark of the former.

3. The “Heisman” isn’t awarded to the nation’s best RB, and being the national yardage leader isn’t the only thing one looks at when deciding who the best RB is, especially in college. Emmitt Smith was a unanimous All American RB, an accolade rare enough that it doesn’t happen every year. He also was second nationally in career high school yardage (behind the 1950s Texas great Ken Hall, not Barry Sanders). I’m not the one arguing that career yards is the end all be all, but it debunks the “great line” argument to point out that:

Emmitt Smith had more yards than Barry Sanders in high school.

Emmitt Smith had more yards than Barry Sanders in college.

Emmitt Smith had more yards than Barry Sanders in the NFL.

Those are facts. Smith was dominant at every level.

4. No one called Tatum “Assassin” as a nickname when he played. His post-retirement “Assassin” books (he actually cranked out three over the 1980s, cashing in as much as he could), ostensibly started as a defense against critics accusing him of being a cheap shot artist whose irresponsible antics got Stingley paralyzed.

5. You said: “Jim Brown only spoke of guards Gene Hickerson and John Wooten when recalling his success as a runner in the NFL. Mike McCormack was a Hall of Fame oversite on my part. But Lou Groza made his Hall of Fame mark as a kicker, not a blocker.”

Lou Groza was also a great kicker, but according to the PFHOF website he was an “All-NFL tackle six years” and started at tackle in 6 of his 9 Pro Bowls. Then there are the other guys I listed like Dick Schafrath (T; 6 Pro Bowls, 4 first team All Pros) and Jim Ray Smith (G; 5 Pro Bowls) who are borderline HoFers. Like I said, Jim Brown is a self hyping moron whose pronouncements should be taken with a grain of salt.

6. There you go with the same cherry-picking I called you out for earlier. By your logic the Broncos ran through Tatum’s secondary without fear, putting up relatively big numbers against them in the playoffs, before Cliff Harris and the Doomsday defense shut them down to almost nothing in Super Bowl XII. Sometimes a passing offense would have a good day against the Raiders and sometimes they’d have one against the Cowboys, Steelers, or Vikings. Even the greatest defenses weren’t always perfect.

7. Bachslunch clearly understands that certain numbers in a vacuum can be misleading, which is why he focuses on a set of salient broad indicators that take era into account and emphasizes contemporary accolades to objectively tell as much of the story as possible. Your criticism is baseless. Numbers are just a way to describe reality. As you quoted Bachslunch saying, it’s not hard to use stats to show why Testaverde DOESN’T belong in the HoF. Assuming otherwise just shows you’re limiting your own view to a couple of basic metrics like career yardage. That’s not Bachslunch’s flaw, it’s yours. You make the same mistake with Smith/Sanders and the career rushing record complaints, as if that’s the only feather in Smith’s cap. For you to launch this debate by attacking him and “numbers, numbers, numbers” only to immediately turn around and employ your own cherry-picked numbers to push Raiders you like was a comical bit of hypocrisy. You shouldn’t have made your “anti-numbers” criticisms so simplistic, and instead should have just articulated why those particular numbers supposedly didn’t tell the whole Stabler story.

Personally I view stats as one of the necessary tools in historical evaluations, though I may leave a little more room for “the eyeball test” and unquantified narrative than some do, since stats haven’t yet and may never progress to the point of completely capturing football action, and since even mostly reliable backstop metrics like Pro Bowl/All Pro accolades aren’t perfect.

8. Some see more on a given play than most “watchers” would if they watched it ten times. This is about analytical ability, not quantity of years spent cheering on an NFL team. One reason I quoted Larry Wilson talking about Cliff Harris being the best free safety in the game is because he wasn’t just a contemporary HoF safety, but someone who went on to coach. Again, Brown and Sayers were just players. You simply repeating your quotes doesn’t prove anything. Coaching, playing, and analyzing are all different things. Most players aren’t good at the other two. They don’t know what they’re talking about, any more than Lynn Swann did when he laughed off questions about whether Vince Young was truly ready for the NFL by making a (“that’s a crazy question”) face after the Rose Bowl. It turned out Young wasn’t ready to become a true professional, and Swann was wrong. Brown trying to diminish Smith based on a “great line” when Brown played behind three times as many HoF linemen is laughable.

I saw almost every game Emmitt Smith played and I’ve never seen a better all around running back. No one else had much success with that line and I don’t think Barry Sanders would have had as much success in the power Dallas system with his less steady, scatback style. Regardless, even if one does prefer Sanders’ sensational highlight style over Emmitt’s steady substance (as most kids and immature adults probably do), that’s a far cry from claiming Smith wasn’t an “all time great”, and wasn’t even as good as guys like Roger Craig or Edgerrin James, a simply stupid notion you haven’t come close to supporting.

And no, you missed my point with the Charlie Waters/Atwater thing. I showed how flippant and shallow these nicknames can be, since you brought up the “Smiling Assassin”. Who cares that at one point Atwater read one of Tatum’s books? Lots of people have, not all of them fans. If it wasn’t that book Waters would have called him something else. Atwater himself cited someone else as his personal inspiration. But even if Tatum had been his hero…so what? What’s more relevant is Charlie Waters, a coach personally influenced by years spent with Cliff Harris, being the driving force behind the Broncos drafting a Cliff Harris type player over a Jack Tatum type player.

All that said, it’s possible, indeed common, for more than one player to help bring about a revolutionary innovation. It’s baseless to assume one singular guy has to be responsible for each trend. I never claimed Tatum was historically irrelevant, but to deny the impact of an even better, more prominent player (at least when he played and in accolade accumulation) like Harris is simply wrong.

• Joseph Wright
March 22, 2017

Rasputin, let’s deal in some brutal realities:

1) According to a sober Thomas Henderson in his autobiography “Out of Control,” he was instructed by Cowboys special teams coach Mike Ditka to clobber Denver’s Rick Upchurch the first kickoff whether he got the ball or not, “just to let him know we’ll be there all game.” Henderson carried out Ditka’s orders, picking up a penalty in the process. Broncos Head Coach Red Miller can be seen yelling at Henderson as Upchurch is being restrained from Henderson in the Super Bowl XII highlight film.

2) Tatum was a first-round draft pick. Harris was a rookie free agent. Lott, Easley, Dennis Thurman, Vann McElroy, Carl Banks, Polamalu and others idolized Tatum. Atwater and John Lynch idolized Lott, who was inspired by Tatum. Kam Chancellor has been compared to Tatum. Jon Gruden has raved about Tatum on Monday Night Football. Although, I guess, a few kids in east Texas liked Harris, I have never heard a hard-hitting safety referred to as “the next Cliff Harris” or “a Cliff Harris type.” Never have and, quite likely, never will.

3) Barry Sanders ran for 15,269 yards in 10 years. Smith needed TWELVE years to surpass Barry in career yards. Kind of like another fraudulent Smith (Bruce) needed extra years to pad his totals to “surpass” the player greater than him (Reggie White) who reach the plateau in less time.

4) Haven’t heard a response from you on Gale Sayers’ evaluations on Barry and Emmitt, given that you don’t consider Jim Brown or Eric Dickerson (ONLY the two greatest runners of all time: Brown cleared 10,000 yards in 98 games; Dickerson turned that trick in 91) to have “credibility.”
Reminder: Sayers: “Good running back, great offensive line.”–for Smith. “I love watching him play. He the most reminds me of myself.”–for Sanders.

Clincher: Brown: “Emmitt can play (well) on certain teams. Barry could play (well) for any team, in any era.” Love being validated by hall of Famers. LMAO!

5) Emmitt’s “championship caliber playing style”: He was on the right team, in a great situation. Does Emmitt turn that trick in Detroit with Bob Gagliano, Rodney Peete, Andre Ware, Dave Kreig, Scott Mitchell, and Charlie Batch at QB and that mediocre offensive line (with the notable exception of Lomas Brown)? Of course not. The playoff reputations of Barry, Dickerson, O.J., and Jim Brown change if they switch places with Emmitt, Roger Craig, Franco Harris, and Jim Taylor. Oh, by the way…In their one playoff matchup, who won the game Barry or Emmitt? LMAO!! College: Sanders led the nation in rushing, breaking Marcus Allen’s record in the process AND won the Heisman Trophy. Emmitt never did,

6) Lou Groza made the Pro Bowl as an offensive lineman from 1950-55 and the last four of those years he was first-team All-Pro. Very impressive. One problem, though. In all of those years, Jim Brown was in high school or college! When JB came into the NFL, Groza was strictly a kicker and made the Pro Bowl as just and only that in ’57, ’58, and ’59–Brown’s first three years as a pro.

7) You wrote that Tatum’s “irresponsible antics got Stingley paralyzed.” In the September ’80 NFL Preview issue of Sport Magazine, the feature article was “Receivers Answer The Assassin” Several NFL wideouts (Drew Pearson, Harold Carmichael, John Stallworth, Stanley Morgan, Dave Logan, Haven Moses, Ahmad Rashad, Wesley Walker) spoke about Tatum, violence in the NFL, and the play in which Stingley was injured (according to the Sport, “Lynn Swann refused to be interviewed because he didn’t want to give Tatum the publicity.” Wussy.). Your own Drew Pearson said, “What really caused the injury was that Darryl ducked his head just before Tatum hit him.”

• Rasputin
March 21, 2017

Should add that Larry Wilson went on to be a scout and GM as well as a coach.

• Rasputin
March 22, 2017

To Joseph Wright,

1. So? Oh is that your explanation for you wrongly asserting that Henderson, not Harris, knocked Upchurch out after I had correctly observed with certainty that Harris had? It didn’t occur to you ask what I was basing that on to be sure?

2. Cliff Harris made 6 Pro Bowls to Tatum’s 3, and 3 first team AP All Pro selections to Tatum’s zero. Harris was first team All Decade while Tatum wasn’t All Decade at all. Harris has been the starting free safety on multiple SI all time NFL teams while to my knowledge Tatum never has been. Harris won 2 Super Bowls to Tatum’s 1. Harris was also a key member of Doomsday. After his retirement in 1979 the unit’s decline started noticeably in the secondary. By contrast the year Tatum left for Houston (1980) all the Raiders did was win the Super Bowl without him.

As for the post career hype you mention, Tatum did write more self promoting books than Harris, at least three of them bearing the sensationalistic and exciting nickname “Assasin” in the title, while Harris moved on to other things and received little national media coverage given the rise of the anti-Cowboys bias discussed elsewhere on this thread, but plenty of kids and adults have compared players to Cliff Harris. More should be doing so.

3. Emmitt Smith ran for 8,019 yards in a 5 year peak (1991-1995) while Sanders only ran for 7,398 yards those same years. So I can play that game too. More importantly, Smith powered his team to 3 Super Bowl wins, including putting them on his back in decisive fashion in the Super Bowl 28 comeback and the regular season finale separated shoulder game against the Giants that secured home field advantage, in a textbook example of your alleged #3 playoff history impact criteria. What was Barry Sanders’ memorable impact on playoff history, btw?

I think Smith was the better back at his peak, but whether one favors Sanders or Smith it’s indefensible to claim Smith wasn’t one of the all time greats. For you to go even further and call Smith “fraudulent” given the feats I’ve laid out just destroys your credibility even more than your other wrong statements have.

4. LOL! Still repeating the same rebutted quotes? Guess you’re out of ammo. Sayers was great but I’d rather build my franchise around Smith any day. Sayers was delicate. He wasn’t a dynastic, championship caliber running back. Durability matters, and Smith was a vital workhorse.

Jim Brown was a great player but, in addition to being a moron and screwing up careers like Duane Thomas’ as I said earlier, he’s been in and out of jail for assaulting various women over the years. It’s disgusting that the media keeps legitimizing this guy by trotting him out from time to time to discuss political/racial/social issues as if he’s some sage.

To show how worthless his commentary on other players is, Brown had no respect for Franco Harris, and was annoyed that Harris came as close to passing his yardage mark as he did. Brown sincerely thought he could beat Harris in a race at the end of the latter’s career, so the long retired Brown and recently retired Harris met and ran the 40. Franco decisively beat Jim Brown.

“Credibility”, LMAO! Scout/coach/GM/HoF player Larry Wilson’s quote on Cliff Harris has a lot more credibility.

5. You’re just repeating baseless speculation. We don’t know for sure what WOULD have happened if Sanders had played for Dallas instead of Smith, though I suspect they would have been punting a lot more due to Sanders’ wild, home run seeking style on every play and fizzling out more on the road in the playoffs as Sanders did in less comfortable environments when the games mattered most.

We do know what they ACTUALLY did. Smith rushed for more yards in high school than Barry Sanders did. Smith rushed for more yards in his three years in college than Sanders did in his three years in college. Smith was a unanimous All American RB in college, meaning the media consensus was that he was the best in the country at his position. All that was accomplished without the Great Wall of Dallas. You’ve failed to explain this.

We know that Sanders had more yards per season in the late 90s without Lomas Brown and with a weaker team around him than he did during his first several years when the Lions were regularly a playoff team, a phenomenon that cripples your assumptions and that you have yet to explain.

We know that the Cowboys started 0-2 without Smith in 1993 because they couldn’t run the ball with the backup, and went on to win almost all their remaining games including the Super Bowl after bringing Smith back, solidifying his MVP status.

We know Smith won 3 Super Bowls while Sanders won zero.

We know Smith scored 25 rushing TDs in one season, then an NFL record.

We know Sanders holds the career record for getting stuffed with no gain.

We know Smith won 4 rushing titles in his first 6 years, along with Super Bowl and NFL MVP awards.

We know rushing champions are often on bad or mediocre teams (think about that), and in fact Smith was the first to win a rushing title and a Super Bowl the same year.

We know the Cowboys were more dominant from 1992-1995 than any other team ever has been over a four year period, winning all 10 of their playoff victories in that span by double digits (every single one). That type of unparalleled dominance leaves room for and arguably requires Smith, Aikman, and Irvin to all be among the greatest of all time at their respective positions, along with a great line, great role players like Novacek and Moose Johnston, and a legitimately great defense. But it particularly points to dominance in time of possession and the physical dismantling of opposing teams that prevented comebacks, led by Emmitt Smith and the power running game.

We know that near the end of Smith’s career in Dallas, when he really was a slightly above average back (still doing better than Sanders was on the couch though), loads of people said the new backup Troy Hambrick was better (he was bigger and faster you see, and some idiots think that’s all that matters), until the following year when Smith was gone and Hambrick was the starter with the same line. He only averaged 3.5 y/c and was gone the next year. Turns out they were wrong; Smith was the better back. People kept underestimating him through the end of his career.

Oh, and for whatever it’s worth we know that Smith rushed for more yards and TDs than anyone else in NFL history by a large margin, so even if that’s not a precise measure of greatness he had to have been doing something right.

We know that you mocked Bachslunch for allegedly using a “fantasy football” approach when you’re the one actually using a shallow armchair fantasy approach here (“numbers, numbers, numbers”; plug and play from one system to a completely different one, lol).

Oh, and we know the Cowboys got revenge against the Lions the following year by beating them 37-3. Remember, Barry Sanders was drafted to a better, more established team than Smith was. But in just a few years Smith’s team was among the greatest of all time, in large part because of him.

6. No, Lou Groza was the starting LT through the end of the 1950s, including the first third of Jim Brown’s career. He didn’t become a kicker specialist-only until after a back injury in 1960. That he was a Pro Bowl tackle before Brown showed up just underscores that he was a legitimately great lineman and not merely a creature of Brown’s success. In fact the PFHOF site calls him “one of pro football’s finest offensive tackles”.

7. No I didn’t. I said Tatum was widely criticized (by others) as a cheap shot artist whose irresponsible antics had gotten Stingley paralyzed, and that he ostensibly wrote the “Assassin” books to respond to that criticism, with all the ensuing controversy boosting the hype around him.

“Brutal realities”, lol? Your post was more a collection of non sequiturs, regurgitated claims that have already been debunked, and facts more supportive of my position than yours.

• Joseph Wright
March 23, 2017

1) “Smith was the better back at his peak” Really? Barry hung up seasons of 1,883 and 2053 behind mediocre lines (the 2G+ coming WITHOUT Lomas Brown). Emmitt’s best years were 1,713 and 1,773 behind the most brutally dominating run-blocking line ever—and that’s a “better peak” than Barry Sanders’? Poor talent evaluation at the least, horrible math skills at the worst.
When the best runner is combined with the best lines, 2,000-yard seasons are a given (O.J. and The Electric Company; Eric Dickerson and that talented crew in Los Angeles; Terrell Davis and the guys in Denver). Emmitt never even cracked 1,800. Walter Payton—who Emmitt is undeservedly compared to—ran for 1,852 behind nothing in Chicago in 1977—in FOURTEEN games! Perfect evaluation of Emmitt by Gale Sayers: “Good running back, great offensive line.”

2) Gale Sayers “wasn’t a dynastic, championship caliber running back.” And, I suppose, Dick Butkus “wasn’t a dynastic, championship caliber” middle linebacker. Emmitt was in the perfect situation, Sayers was not. I guess Ken Norton Jr. was “a dynastic, championship caliber” middle linebacker, right Rasputin?

3) In the original entry, “They Call Me Assassin,” Tatum had a chapter called “Rating My Peers in the NFL.” He named the best, position by position, at that time (1978-79). No Cowboys impressed him, I suppose, because he named none. He did give credit to Tom Landry as a coach. Two comments he made were interesting, however. In commenting on Lynn Swann he said, “he will continue to pile up incredible numbers against the nonphysical teams (Dallas—Cliff Harris?) while he will cause no concern for the physical ones (Raiders—Tatum).” He concluded the chapter by saying, “I’m sure there are other safeties who are better than me when it comes to playing the ball and interceptions. But when it comes to making tackles, I’m sure there are a lot of receivers and runners who wish I didn’t exist.” If Cliff Harris was SO much better than Tatum in pass coverage, why did Tatum–who played 10 years just like Harris–have 37 INTs to Harris 29? And Tatum himself conceded he wasn’t a pass thief and was definitely not a finesse player. Harris’ highwater INT season was five. Tatum had 6- and 7-INT seasons. What’s more, Tatum brought his INTs back for 737 career yards while Harris had 281 yard on his—LESS than 10 yards a return. SI, the fraudulent Dr. Z, and AP were prejudiced against the Raiders. I don’t want to hear anything about the “Anti-Cowboys bias.” The Cowboys stopped going to the Super Bowl, not due to Cliff Harris retirement, but because they had no replacement for Roger Staubach. Cliff got out of dodge just in time. Of all the safeties on the All-70s team (Harris, Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson, Ken Houston) only one (Houston) picked off more passes in the 70s than Tatum. And INTs were considered Tatum’s weak point! What was that about Larry Wilson’s “credibility?”

4) When Emmitt and Barry’s teams matched up in the Playoffs, who won? What was Barry’s W-L Record against Emmitt’s Cowboys? What were the results—team-wise and individually—of their primetime Monday Night Football matchup of 1994? Get back to me with those answers to point #4, JUNIOR! LMFAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 24, 2017

Joseph Wright, you dodged all my questions in cowardly fashion, including why you think Barry Sanders ran for more yards in the late 90s with an inferior team than he did in the early 90s when he was in his prime and surrounded by a playoff team that included 7 time Pro Bowler Lomas Brown in the line, so I’ll answer for you.

One factor is stat inflation. You’re comparing different eras to each other. For example, in 1992, the middle of Emmitt’s first 3 consecutive rushing titles, the average NFL team gained 4770.5 yards from scrimmage. In 1997, Barry Sanders’ 2k season, the average NFL team gained 5037.8 yards. By 2000 the average was 5110.8 yards, by 2010 it was 5376.8 yards, and in 2015 it was a record 5642.6 yards. Offense has gotten easier with rule changes over the years. That’s how stat inflation works. There was an even bigger explosion than usual from 1995 onward.

I’m not saying that’s the only reason Sanders hit 2k; after all, a couple of other backs had done it in earlier decades, but it was a definite factor that exaggerated Sanders’ numbers and has to be taken into account, and it explains why Sanders HIMSELF ran for more yards late in his career than HE had back when RBs are typically in their primes and he had a better team around him.

From 1991-1995, apples to apples seasons when both backs were in their primes and Barry Sanders had his best teams around him, Emmitt rushed for 8,019 yards and 85 TDs while Sanders rushed for 7,398 yards and 46 TDs. Smith won 4 rushing titles while Sanders won 1. Smith also had 1,723 yards receiving while Sanders had 1,418 yards receiving, and Smith was always the better blocker.

I’m not arguing that the RB with the most yards is necessarily the best one, but I’m showing that you lose the argument even by your own insipid standards. All your “2k” in 1997 point shows is that Sanders, with his finesse style, sustained excellence longer than Smith. But it’s not like Sanders was better in his last couple of years than he was over the first half of his career, when Emmitt firmly established himself as the best RB in the league. Smith did have the most yards then, but the real reason he was the best running back is because he was the most consistent.

Sanders had more splashy, big gains because he was faster, but Smith had more power, better vision, and was more efficient in his movement. Smith also posted seasonal rushing TD totals of 18, 21, and an incredible 25. Sanders never scored more than 16. Would you rather have TDs or yards? Smith was better in the Red Zone than Sanders was, where there isn’t room to pop the occasional long, stat skewing gain. You either score or you don’t.

Within opponents’ 10 yard line, where yards are toughest to come by, Sanders averaged 1.3 yards/carry and scored on 19% of his carries. Smith averaged 1.6 yards/carry and scored on 33% of his carries, despite a longer career with several later seasons that skewed his average down.

As for that one playoff loss you keep harping on, Sanders was on a better team than Smith through 1991, but even in that 1991 loss Smith averaged 5.33 yards/carry, so it’s not like HE sucked. That game was more about the Lions’ defense getting to Aikman through a porous Dallas line that wasn’t yet “great”.

Emmitt Smith won the rushing title that year despite playing with a line that had ZERO Pro Bowlers, far from being “the most brutally dominating run-blocking line ever” as you called it, lol. At least Sanders had a Pro Bowl blocker in Lomas Brown.

And again, the Cowboys got revenge the next year by beating the Lions 37-3. And that’s without getting into the fact that the Cowboys’ NFC East was a lot tougher division than the Lions’ NFC Central. From 1986-1995 every Super Bowl champion was either the 49ers or an NFC East team. Three different NFC East teams were SB champions in that stretch, all with great defenses, and that doesn’t include the Eagles, who had a monstrous defense into the early 90s. More pertinently, here are some respective playoff stats:

Career Playoffs Yards/Carry

Emmitt Smith – 4.5
Barry Sanders – 4.2

Emmitt Smith – 4.5
Barry Sanders – 2.8

Smith was even BETTER in the playoffs than he was in the regular season, even if you exclude the years from 2000 onward that skew down his regular season average. Sanders dropped off in the biggest games, while Smith stepped up and got the job done. Smith was also just as good on the road as he was at home, while Sanders declined to a miserable 2.8 yards/carry.

I’m not claiming the back with the higher yards/carry is necessarily better since a few big gains can skew that stat. I’m just showing that you lose even on your own terms when the games mattered most. You live by those stats you die by those stats.

• Joseph Wright
March 27, 2017

I answered your questions. Emmitt was on a better team, therefore, he was going to have more playoff opportunities (and success) than Barry. Same can be said for Franco vs. O.J., Roger Craig vs. Eric Dickerson, Jim Taylor vs. Jim Brown. As far as this “stat inflation” nonsense of yours, the reason the team yardage gains went up is because of more PASSING yards, not RUNNING yards. Barry stats were not the product of “stat inflation.” Cris Carter, yes. Barry Sanders, no. “Stat inflation” only applies to QBs and WRs. The running game has remained virtually unchanged throughout the years. It has not gotten easier and you are ridiculously talking about Sanders and Smith like they are from two completely different eras. Smith had FAR more carries than Sanders yet he still needed TWO extra seasons to reach and pass the career yardage total Barry had established. If anyone’s stats were inflated, it was Smith’s, not Sanders’.

So, coward, I am just looking for simple answers to these simple questions:

1) What is Barry’s playoff record vs. Emmitt’s teams?
2) What was Barry’s overall record vs. Emmitt’s teams?
3) In the Monday Night Football matchup of 1994 between the Lions and Cowboys (at Texas Stadium) who won game and what were the stat lines of Sanders vs. Smith?
4) Why do you ignore Sanders’ four rushing titles?
5) Would Emmitt have won Super Bowls with the mediocre Detroit O-line and QBs Scott Mitchell/Rodney Peete/Andre Ware/Bob Gagliano/Dave Kreig/Charlie Batch?

“Stat inflation/” What are you smokin’? The rule changes have regularly been made to increase passing and benefit passers and receivers, not running backs. Barry was a much, much more efficient yard gainer than Emmitt, never carrying more than 343 times in any season (E.g., 1994–37 less carries, 399 MORE yards, 1996–20 less carries, 349 MORE yards). If you are the best running back with the best line and you’re getting more than 370 carries for the season, you should get 2,000 yards. At least, get 1,800. If you get less than 1,800 with 370 carries and the best o-line in football, you are functional, not special. Emmitt’s numbers (inflated by that great line and extra force-fed carries) are not fooling too many people outside of Dallas.

• Rasputin
March 24, 2017

You’re equating “Gale Sayers” with Dick Butkus when it comes to durability, LMFAO?!? Thank you for continuing to show that you don’t understand football, son. Butkus played well through all sorts of injuries in his 9 year career. Gale Sayers kept getting too injured to play. He only lasted 3 and a half seasons before hurting his leg, and then came back for one more season before hurting his leg again and sputtering a little before retiring. He only played a little over 4 and a half real seasons. Sayers ran pretty but he wasn’t built to have Smith’s rugged durability. A championship dynasty built on the power running game needs its back to be a reliable workhorse. I agree with Sayers that Sanders was more like him than Smith was, if not quite as fragile. I’d rather have Smith though.

Sayers only had 994 rushing attempts in his entire career. Smith carried the ball 4,409 times, caught 515 passes, and was a ferociously effective blocker throughout his career while almost never missing a game. He’s the guy you build a great team around.

You’re also wrong about better teams necessarily leading to better rushing results. You’ve ignored what I’ve said here so I’ll keep schooling you. The Cowboys were a balanced team. They ran and passed with almost an exact 50/50 split. By contrast the early 70s teams like OJ Simpsons’ Bills were typically built to run on most plays. In 1973, Simpson’s 2k season, the Bills ran 3 times as often as they passed it. In 1984, Dickerson’s 2k season, his Rams ran over 51% more often than they passed it. Sometimes RBs posted big totals because their teams were focused entirely on executing the running game well, and sometimes they racked up the big numbers because they were on mediocre teams that just kept handing the ball off no matter what.

Sometimes these big numbers were put up by fast guys with occasional big gains who also got stuffed a lot, helping their personal y/c average and total yards but not carrying their teams to postseason glory.

If you look at yearly rushing leaders, there doesn’t appear to be much correlation between having a good team around you and winning the rushing title. It was like that in the early NFL, when the first two recorded rushing champions, Cliff Battles (1932) and Jim Musick (1933) were both on non-winning teams.

In the Super Bowl era 20 rushing champions (about 40% of the total) didn’t even make the playoffs. 14 weren’t even on winning teams. If playing on a good or great team is the overwhelmingly decisive factor in rushing totals you’re claiming it is, wouldn’t a lot more than 60% of rushing champions have at least made the playoffs? Wouldn’t more than 2 guys over the past 51 years have won both a Super Bowl and a rushing title in the same year?

Wouldn’t Barry Sanders himself had posted better yardage totals from 1988-1995, when he had Lomas Brown blocking for him, than he did from 1996-1998 without Brown? Granted he had Pro Bowl C Kevin Glover and playmaking WR Herman Moore with him at Detroit for pretty much his whole career, but the Lions overall were better early on, with 4 of Sanders’ playoff trips coming in the first half of the 90s and only 1 in the decade’s second half.

Barry Sanders ran for fewer yards with a better line than he did with a lesser line. Based on this evidence, it’s possible he would have had fewer yards if he had played at Dallas than Detroit, especially when the less Sanders-friendly power system and tougher NFC East opposition is taken into account. Clearly factors other than just line quality are involved in determining yearly rushing totals.

Emmitt Smith was so good he was able to win the rushing title 4 times despite being on a multi-dimensional team. The only other SB champion to win a rushing title was Terrell Davis, who only did it once.

All that said, Barry Sanders is an all time great. Gale Sayers is an all time great. Every time you resort to comparing Emmitt Smith to one of those guys instead of the lesser backs you originally mentioned you’re implicitly conceding that Smith is an all time great too and that you were wrong.

• Joseph Wright
March 27, 2017

I never equated Sayers to Butkus on durability. Quit ducking and changing the issue of your baseless point. You said Sayers wasn’t a championship-caliber running back. if that is the case then, I suppose–according to you–it would have to be said that Butkus wasn’t a championship-caliber middle linebacker.
As far as Sayers injuries are concerned, the medical technology wasn’t available during his time. Adrian Peterson has a similar injury, is operated on in this modern era and almost breaks Eric Dickerson’s rushing record the very next year. Could Sayers have won Super Bowls as a halfback on Lombardi’s Packers? Of course! Could Sayers have played the Mercury Morris role on Shula’s Dolphins? Absolutely!
Once again, Emmitt was in a great situation.

I’m wrong about better teams leading to better rushing results? Is THAT right? Tell that to Eric Dickerson (Rams to Colts), Larry Csonka (Dolphins to Giants), Jim Taylor (Packers to Saints), or Earl Campbell (Oilers to Saints). Or–EMMITT SMITH (Cowboys to Cardinals)! They’d seriously injure themselves–either from falling down laughing at you or beating each other up to be the first in line to slap you. That’s a funny image…LMAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 24, 2017

The Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was the most violent and physical in the NFL, and Harris was a key part of that. By your own logic, the Broncos ran wild through the non-physical Raiders’ secondary for 217 yards while the Cowboys shut them down for a meager 35 yards passing in the Super Bowl. In fact check this out. From 1971-1979, the years Cliff Harris and Jack Tatum started for their respective teams, the Cowboys pass defense allowed significantly fewer yards than the Raiders.

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g
Raiders – 159.26 y/g

As the numbers are based on 130 regular season games stretching almost a decade, that’s a statistically big gap. I just crushed your entire argument using your own logic because you were too lazy to look up the overall facts. Again, the Raiders won the Super Bowl the year after Tatum left while the Dallas defense declined noticeably in the secondary starting when Cliff Harris retired, skewering your position.

After ranking in the top 10 in pass defense in each of his last 5 years , and the top 5 in his last 3, Dallas dropped from 3rd in 1979 to 16th in 1980, their first year without Harris. By contrast, after ranking down in the 20s in pass defense for Tatum’s final 4 seasons, the Raiders ROSE from 21st in 1979 to 19th in 1980, their first year without him. Note how, unlike you (and Tatum), I (and Larry Wilson) can actually back up my claims with concrete facts.

Tatum was a self hyping, classless moron, lol. You’ve actually found an even WORSE guy to quote than the ones I just discredited (your silence about the delusional Jim Brown is deafening LMFAO!), and his failure to include any players who “impressed him” from the team that won more games in the 70s than any other and was in the Super Bowl for literally half the decade just shows how worthless his commentary is, so thanks for faceplanting from the start by including that. Since you’re still mindlessly repeating some refuted quotes though, I’ll keep posting this much better one from a guy who was a scout, coach, and long time GM (meaning he had to professionally analyze players) as well as a HoF player at the same position:

“I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.” – Larry Wilson

No wonder Harris went to twice as many Pro Bowls as Tatum, won twice as many Super Bowls, and was selected first team All Decade (the well documented anti-Cowboys bias had only just started to gear up then). Keep in mind it’s the coaches, GMs, and scouts doing the “modeling”, not random, cherry-picked kids here and there who are more influenced by hype than substance.

I was HOPING you’d be dense enough to conflate “interceptions” with coverage ability, lol. They’re two different things. Deion Sanders, the greatest cover corner of all time, doesn’t even rank in the top 23 in career interceptions. That’s because QBs often don’t throw at guys who are well covered. Cowboys safety Roy Williams was the hardest hitter in the league in the early to mid 2000s, and inspired the “horse collar rule” because he was so strong he kept injuring guys when he would tackle them from behind (most famously Terrell Owens). He also had more interceptions than anyone else on the team from 2002-2007, 19 in those 6 years, the exact same number Tatum had in his first 6 years. He just had a knack for catching the ball when it was close to him.

Roy Williams couldn’t cover worth crap. His deficiencies were covered up early on because the great Darren Woodson helped him out, got him lined up properly, and handled the bulk of the coverage responsibilities to free Williams up to lay down hard tackles on RBs and the occasional receiver (Woodson only has 23 career interceptions because teams rarely threw the ball his way; he was an awesome cover guy). After Woodson retired Williams was increasingly exposed each year. The Cowboys finally let Williams go and were better off without him. Roy Williams was a lot like Jack Tatum, though Williams did make a couple more Pro Bowls than Tatum. Williams has about as strong a HoF case as Tatum, which is slim to none.

You didn’t mention the other stuff in my post, like my correction of your false claim about Lou Groza. I’m not sure whether you should be paying me tuition for educating you or I should be paying you for serving as my punching bag. Perhaps it’s time to cut your losses.

• Rasputin
March 27, 2017

LOL! You’re such a craven wuss you’re resorting to splitting my posts up each round when they’re supposed to go together as one answer. I’ve been using multiple posts to make them easier to read. You’re exploiting the fact that your screen apparently has a “reply” button for each post in this line while the respondents to your initial post way up there like me don’t and have to keep stacking our replies at the bottom. You’re ruining the chronological flow of the discussion because it hasn’t gone your way and you’re not confident about it ever doing so. A more secure man would be willing to let his opponents’ arguments stand as presented and reply all at once at the bottom so the debate stays clear and followable rather than muddying things up.

• Rasputin
March 27, 2017

This is actually a reply Joseph Wright. I’m scooting the discussion over because he desperately resorted to playing games with the thread structure and wanted to keep breaking his opponents’ replies up rather than have an intellectually honest debate, and because over here his ability to do that presumably won’t be unilateral.

LOL! You’re STILL having to compare Emmitt Smith to Barry Sanders rather than guys like Edgerrin James, Curtis Martin, or Roger Craig, even after I just pointed out that by doing so you’re implicitly conceding he’s on Sanders’ level and that your initial idiotic claim about those lesser backs being better than Smith was so wrong you can’t even attempt to mount a defense. That said….

No you didn’t, coward. And mine are pertinent, like why did Barry Sanders gain more yards with a worse line that he did with a better line and team during his prime? Not like your wanting to harp on the result of a single game the Lions won in OT by a field goal. BTW, in that 1994 game Emmitt rushed 29 times for 143 yards (4.93 y/c) and a TD, while Sanders rushed 40 times for 194 yards (4.85 y/c) and no TDs. Smith also had 9 catches for 49 yards, for a total of 192 yards from scrimmage, while Sanders had no catches. Both RBs played great. And the game was close; it wasn’t a blowout like when the Cowboys beat the Lions 37-3. As is often the case you don’t seem to have a cogent point. I also already talked about the ONE playoff meeting they had. See above. The Cowboys and Lions didn’t play much, and it’s not like Smith and Sanders directly played against each other on the field at the same time when they did anyway. The overall picture is more pertinent:

Career Playoffs Yards/Carry

Emmitt Smith – 4.5
Barry Sanders – 4.2

Emmitt Smith – 4.5
Barry Sanders – 2.8

If individual performance is merely a factor of the team you’re on, as you just stupidly alleged, then why was there such a drop off for Barry Sanders in the playoffs compared to the regular season when he was on the same team with the same line? Why was there an even steeper drop off from home to away postseason games? Again, he had the same line. Apples to apples. Why did Emmitt Smith NOT have a drop off from the regular season to the playoffs? Why did Emmitt have even better stats in the postseason, and post almost exactly the same stats on the road as he did at home in the playoffs? He had the same line too.

I’m not saying a better line won’t boost numbers all else being equal. I’m saying that clearly ALL ELSE WASN’T EQUAL. There were undeniably factors other than line quality leading to Sanders posting better stats in the late 90s with a worse team than he had in the early 90s with a better team. The league matters. A team’s system matters.

The Cowboys’ power system was geared toward getting those steady gains a physical back like Smith could deliver, not living or dying on whether Sanders found his way through the clutter to hit enough long home runs each game. They ground down opponents and played for time of possession. It wasn’t a system for dancing or running around behind the line of scrimmage passing up solid opportunities to look for a bigger one. So no, I don’t think Sanders would have done as well in the Cowboys system as Smith and you can’t prove otherwise since you can’t even explain why Sanders rushed for less yardage in real life with a better line in Detroit than he did with a worse line later.

As for stat inflation, while it’s driven by passing game changes those changes open up the WHOLE offense, and make running easier than it used to be, especially if you’re a fast back who can exploit open spaces. That’s why in 1994 the average NFL team gained 1668.2 yards rushing and averaged 3.7 yards/carry, while in 1997 it averaged 1808.7 and gained 4.0 y/c. In fact from 1991 – 1996 the NFL average was below 4 y/c every year but one (an even 4.0 in 1992), while from 1997 – 2005 it was at or above 4.0 every year but one. From 2006-2016 the NFL has averaged from 4.1-4.3 y/c every season. In 2011 the average hit 4.3 y/c for the first time in history. Rushing totals went up for a while in the 90s, but as the 2000s wore on teams posted fewer and fewer rushing attempts, placing more emphasis on bigger statistical payoffs in the passing game. Defenses are less geared up to stop the run though when it does happen, so yards/carry has continued to rise. Perhaps your wrong claim about rushing staying “virtually unchanged” over the years was because you just took a quick, shallow glance at yearly yardage totals without looking deeper, the pattern of behavior you’ve consistently exhibited and falsely accused Bachslunch of earlier. It also doesn’t speak well of your eyes or discernment, since this should have been obvious even without having to look up the stats for confirmation.

Barry Sanders himself averaged 4.9 y/c in his first 7 seasons, when he had his best teams around him, and 5.2 y/c in his final 3 years. And sure Sanders’ and Smith’s careers heavily overlapped, moron. I’m the one who just laid that out for YOU. I said Sanders sustained excellence longer (his finesse style was more conducive to staying healthy and exploiting those open spaces in the late 90s, especially with the Lions’ spread attack, while Smith’s early 90s physical running took a toll), but, apples to apples, Smith was better during his 5 year peak than Sanders was during those same years. Smith gained almost a thousand more yards during that span, not counting his extra receiving work. But that’s not really why he was better. You’re still just all about yards and yards/carry (“numbers numbers numbers”, lol). Smith was better because he was more physical and CONSISTENT. He almost always got at least some kind of decent gain, which kept the chains moving, which avoided his team having to punt, which led to championships. The superior “efficiency” I mentioned was Smith’s movement, not y/c. He wasn’t as fast as Sanders but Sanders ran more wildly, with his body jerking around all over the place. Smith was more balanced and agile, maximizing his athleticism and getting more out of what speed he did possess. Smith didn’t waste steps.

Maybe that’s why when long, stat skewing territory wasn’t available for the occasional big gain, and they were up against the end zone in hit or miss situations, these were the results:

Career Yards/Carry Within Opponents’ 10 Yard Line

Emmitt Smith – 1.6
Barry Sanders – 1.3

Career TD Percentage On Carries From Within Opponents’ 10 Yard Line

Emmitt Smith – 33%
Barry Sanders – 19%

Oh and as for Sanders’ 4 rushing titles, I said he was an all time great. Like Erick Dickerson. Like OJ Simpson. Like Jim Brown. Like Emmitt Smith. The only guys to do it. You don’t win 4 rushing titles without being an all time great, I don’t care how good your line is. There have been lots of great lines in history and only an elite few RBs who have won 4 rushing titles, the best of the best.

You said: “I never equated Sayers to Butkus on durability.”

Sure you did, though it was possibly a clumsy accident because you ignored the fact that I clearly said Sayers wasn’t a “dynastic, championship caliber running back” because he was “delicate” and “durability matters”, dimly pretending instead that I had said that simply because he hadn’t won a championship, going onto babble some straw man about Dick Butkus and Ken Norton.

Sure modern medicine could have done a better job fixing Sayers’ leg, but he’d still be out for the year. And Sayers KEPT getting injured. Is he going to have surgery every other year? Some guys just aren’t cut out for workhorse NFL careers. Other backs in his era pulled it off, and for every Adrian Peterson there are countless others whose bodies don’t hold up even with modern medicine. Sayers lacked Smiths’ incredible ruggedness and durability. Period.

• Joseph Wright
March 27, 2017

OK, coward. You won’t answer the obvious questions, so let me answer them for all the world to see:

1) Barry Sanders is undefeated in the playoffs vs. Emmitt Smith (38-6; and as the announcers say, “And it wasn’t even THAT close.”; Sanders closed the came with a 47-yd. TD; Smith is a non-factor (80 yards) after rushing for 266 yards the previous two games, including a stat-padding 32 carry 160-yard walkover against the weak-tackling Atlanta Falcons to filch the league rushing title on the regular season’s last day–embarrassing: Going into the season finale Sanders was leading the league with 1440 (316 carries), Smith had 1,403 (333 carries).
2) Barry’s Lion’s were 3-1 vs. Emmitt’s Cowboys despite: A. Smith having a better O-line B. Smith having a better QB C. Smith having a better coach D. Smith having a better defense
3) In 1994, Sanders outcarried (40-29; So much for Rasputin’s and others fib about Sander’s lack of durability and toughness) and outgained (194-143) Smith on the national primetime stage–Monday Night Football–in Smith’s stadium (“How ’bout them Cowboys!” LMAO).
4) Barry’s rushing titles came with an ordinary line and his best of those years far outclass the best of Emmitt’s rushing titles.
5) The Lions would have been lucky to win FIVE games with Emmitt’s limited talent running the ball with that weak line and those sorry collection of QBs.

You are right. I shouldn’t be mentioning Emmitt with Barry. That is giving Smith undeserved praise. Let’s say Emmitt was Larry Brown (Redskins, ’70s) or Lawrence McCutcheon paired with the greatest run-blocking line ever. He (Brown/McCutcheon/Smith) can give you 1,600-1,700 yards but not 1,800. And 2,000–FORGET IT. Emmitt’s not on THAT level. Those are the facts, folks.

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

So not only are you a cowardly weasel, Little Joey, but your reading comprehension sucks. I just answered your red herring “questions” in comprehensive detail above, while you still haven’t answered my pertinent ones about how you explain Sanders gaining more yards with an inferior line than he did earlier in his career with a better line and team, about why Sanders’ playoff numbers dropped off so steeply from his regular season numbers (one game doesn’t a career make, you cherry-picking buffoon, and it wasn’t Emmitt’s job to tackle him anyway, lol), especially to a dismal 2.8 yards/carry on the road, and why Emmitt posted even better stats in the playoffs and was just as good on the road. Nor have you explained why Emmitt shattered so many records in high school and college with completely different offensive lines if he was a “fraudulent” player. I also didn’t attack Barry Sanders’ “durability” as you falsely state (that was Gale Sayers, moron; try to keep up). I said he had a finesse running style that helped him stay healthy and sustain excellence a long time.

Here are some facts that actually matter:

– Emmitt Smith rushed for 8,804 yards in high school, which ranked 2nd nationally behind only 1950s Texas great Ken Hall, set a national record with 45 100 yard games, and led his school to back to back state championships.

– In 1986 USA Today and Parade named Smith the High School Player of the Year.

– In 2007 the Florida High School Athletic Association named Smith the Player of the Century.

– In his 3 years in college Smith set numerous Florida records, many of which still stand.

– In 1989 Smith was named unanimous first team All American RB by every media organization that voted on such things.

– In the NFL Emmitt Smith was drafted by a 1-15 team.

– Emmitt Smith made 8 Pro Bowls and was selected first team AP All Pro 4 times. (note your alleged criteria #1 and #4 above)

– He was both NFL and Super Bowl MVP. (your criteria #1, #3, and #4)

– Smith was named AP Offensive Player of the Year in 1990 as a rookie on a 7-9 team. (your criteria #4)

– Emmitt’s offensive lineman had a combined ZERO career Pro Bowls until 1992, by which time Smith had already won a rushing title. Nate Newton had been in the league since 1986, Stepnoski since 1989, Mark Tuinei since 1983, John Gesek since 1987 (starting with your Raiders, who didn’t see fit to keep him), and Kevin Gogan since 1987. Most of them had bounced around to various teams and none of them had ever made a Pro Bowl until Emmitt Smith came along and started winning rushing titles.

– In his first 6 years Emmitt gained 8,956 yards rushing and 10,907 from scrimmage, more than anyone in history to that point had in their first 6 years except Eric Dickerson.

– In his first 6 years Emmitt scored 96 rushing and 100 total TDs, more than any other player in the 20th Century in his first 6 years, and more than any 21st Century player so far except LaDainian Tomlinson. Even the great Jerry Rice only scored 83 TDs in his first 6 years. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith scored a then NFL record 25 rushing TDs in 1995. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith scored 76 TDs in a 4 year period (1992-1995), more than any other player at any position did in a 4 year span in the 20th Century. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith is the only player in the Super Bowl era to lead the league in total TDs 3 years, and the only one in NFL history apart from Don Hutson. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith was the first in NFL history to rush for over 1,400 yards in 4 consecutive seasons, a streak he would extend to 5 years. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith led the NFL with 5.3 yards/carry in 1993 despite not being known as a speedster. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt Smith holds the career NFL record for 100 yard games with 78. (your criteria #1)

– In 1993 Smith held out the first two games in a contract dispute and Dallas started 0-2. He returned after re-signing and the Cowboys went on a 7 game winning streak and ultimately won the Super Bowl, becoming the only team to recover from an 0-2 record and accomplish that. (your criteria #3)

– Smith won the 1993 rushing title despite only playing in 14 games and starting in 13. (your criteria #1)

– With home field advantage on the line in the 1993 finale, Smith played most of the game with a separated shoulder on hard, old style artificial turf at NY with Lawrence Taylor and the Giants defense targeting the injured shoulder. Smith gained 229 yards from scrimmage and powered the OT winning drive. Afterward John Madden left the booth to personally express his admiration to Smith in the locker room, the only time Madden ever did that during his announcing career. The NFL Network named Smith’s game as the #4 Gutsiest Performance in NFL history (Barry Sanders wasn’t on the list). (your criteria #3)

– Emmitt won 4 rushing titles, one of only 6 men in NFL history (since 1932) to do so, and, along with Earl Campbell, is one of only 2 to win 3 consecutive rushing titles in the Super Bowl era. (your criteria #1)

– Emmitt holds the career Super Bowl rushing TD record with 5. (your criteria #1 and #3).

– If Smith had retired in 1999 after 10 years, with 13,963 rushing yards he would have ranked 3rd all time and would still rank 4th today.

– In Super Bowl 28, with Aikman still suffering from the effects of a concussion and the Bills leading 13-6 at halftime, the Cowboys opened their first second half drive by running Smith 6 consecutive plays for 46 yards (7.7 y/c). Aikman threw a 3 yard pass to Moose and Emmitt ran for a 15 yard TD, breaking a tackle in the backfield, having accounted for 61 yards (at 8.7 y/c) of the 64 yard, momentum swinging drive. (your criteria #3)

– Emmitt Smith was the first man to win the rushing title and the Super Bowl the same year, something he accomplished 3 times. (your criteria #2)

– Emmitt Smith holds the NFL record for consecutive 1,000 yards seasons with 11. (your criteria #10)

– Walter Payton’s brother Eddie said, “(Walter) is looking down smiling from ear to ear. He once said that if anybody breaks his record, he hopes it is Emmitt because he would do it with the class and the dignity that the record represents.”

– Emmitt Smith holds the NFL record in career playoff rushing yards (1,586) and TDs (19). (your criteria #1 and #3)

– Emmitt Smith holds the career Monday Night Football rushing TD record (23), is tied for the most in a single MNF game (4), and holds the career MNF yardage record (2,434). (your criteria #1, since you brought up the MNF stage)

– Emmitt Smith holds the venerated NFL career rushing record with 18,355 yards, has 21,579 yards from scrimmage and 175 total TDs (2nd), and holds the rushing TD record with 164, records that players will likely be chasing for decades. (your criteria #1 and #2).

Only a drooling idiot would select THIS GUY as an example of someone who’s supposedly not an “all time great”. He clearly was an all time great.

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

Great job of a slightly above average player taking advantage of the greatest run-blocking offensive line of all time to put up Hall of Fame worthy numbers that he would not have attained had he played on the Detroit Lions of that era. Also very fortunate to have a Hall of Fame QB (Troy Aikman) instead of Scott Mitchell/Bob Gagliano/Rodney Peete/Andre Ware/Dave Kreig/Charlie Batch.

ANYBODY can be great in high school. The examples are infinite. Please don’t bring THAT crap up again. Collegiately, Smith never led the nation in rushing, never gained 2,000 yards in a season, never won the Heisman (Marcus Allen & Barry Sanders did).

Put Barry Sanders in the Dallas system and his playoff numbers go up immediately. He wouldn’t be thrown for losses, junior, because there would be a wide-open lane to run through 90 percent of the time. When Sanders lost yards for the Lions it was because he ran to where the whole was supposed to be–but wasn’t:bad blocking–and had to double back and reverse his field to make something happen. No runner was going to have a successful playoff legacy with those Lions. He wouldn’t have faced that problem too often in Dallas. The Cowboys would have won the three or more Super Bowls, giving him a more favorable playoff image (what did Payton do playoff-wise before Ditka came in and got things organized in Chicago?) and he would have posted not one but MULTIPLE 2,000-yd seasons, including a 2,500 yarder. No doubt in my mind. The question again: What would Emmitt have done with the ’90s Lions?

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

Meant he, Hutson, and Jim Brown are the only ones in NFL history to lead the league in total TDs 3 seasons

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

Oh Little Joey Wrong, above I just posted mountains of hard facts illustrating Emmitt Smith’s dominance, including career, seasonal, and single game records, numerous unmatched accomplishments, and memorable feats that transcend stats in their impact (like the separated shoulder game and Super Bowl XXVIII game changing drive). I even helpfully specifically tied most of them to your various supposed “criteria” for greatness that you listed near the top of this page. Emmitt Smith meets all four of your professed criteria points multiple times. That you ignore this just to repeat your stale, dull-witted, already refuted crap about the line and Barry Sanders just shows that you’re a hypocrite as well as a moron. You were lying about your “criteria” from the beginning.

Emmitt Smith isn’t just one of the greatest RBs in history, he’s one of the greatest NFL players in history.

You said: “ANYBODY can be great in high school. The examples are infinite. Please don’t bring THAT crap up again. Collegiately, Smith never led the nation in rushing,”

“Anyone” can’t rank second in national history in career high school yardage, lead his team to multiple state championships, and be declared the Florida “Player of the Century”, lol.

I didn’t say Smith was the most successful college runner in history. I said he was recognized as the best at the time he played. That’s why he was a unanimous first team All American. Rushing yardage totals aren’t as big a deal in college as they are in the more apples to apples NFL, because there’s so much variety in opponent quality. However, it’s telling that many of Smith’s Florida records still stand.

Of course someone can thrive at one level of football and not others. But if a player is recognized as among the best at EVERY level, and you’re trying to argue that he’s merely “slightly above average” (LOL!), then it’s incumbent on you to account for HOW he was so successful at every level. Did he just incredibly luck out with three different offensive lines?

You also STILL failed to explain how Sanders ran for fewer yards early in his career when he had a better line and team around him (since you’re arguing that’s all that matters) than he did in his last few years at Detroit, and fewer yards than Smith did at the same time, btw. Does the better line always mean more yards, or are there other factors in play, including system, opponent quality, league era, etc.?

Why did Sanders’ y/c drop to 4.2 in the playoffs (running behind the same line as the regular season) and to an atrocious 2.8 on the road in the playoffs, running behind the same offensive line?

Why did Smith’s y/c improve to 4.5 in the playoffs (running behind the same line as in the regular season) and remain 4.5 whether he was playing at home or on the road?

You’ve also never addressed my key argument that a RB’s consistency of gains is important, and arguably even more important than total yards and y/c because consistency keeps the chains moving and your team from having to punt.

And you’ve ignored the fact that the Dallas line you want to give ALL the credit to for Smith’s unmatched success, had a collective ZERO career Pro Bowls until after Smith had already won his first rushing title. No other back enjoyed success with that line. It wasn’t like the 1990s/2000s Broncos or the 1950s/60s Cleveland Browns for that matter, who both kept churning out Pro Bowl RBs. And it only contains 1 HoFer (Jim Brown had 3 times as many HoF linemen, as I’ve educated you on), a guy who didn’t even show up until after Smith had already won 3 of his 4 rushing titles. That line almost got Aikman killed his rookie year. So your musings are baseless.

You said: “Also very fortunate to have a Hall of Fame QB (Troy Aikman) instead of Scott Mitchell/Bob Gagliano/Rodney Peete/Andre Ware/Dave Kreig/Charlie Batch.”

He didn’t have Aikman as his QB in high school or college. Florida barely had a passing offense at all. That said, I agree with that statement, and Aikman was certainly fortunate to have Emmitt Smith blocking for him, catching his passes, and keeping his drives alive instead of Barry Sanders or someone worse. I don’t know how Smith would have done at Detroit. The Lions were certainly better than the 1-15 Dallas team that drafted him. In Lomas Brown they also had a lineman who made more career Pro Bowls than anyone Smith had blocking for him at Dallas through his first 3 rushing titles ended up with in their careers. Smith would have given them a more physical, consistent presence, better pass blocking, and a little better receiving option. It wouldn’t shock me if Smith ended up with fewer, equal, or more personal yards at Detroit as he did in Dallas. The team would have given him more carries, and, because they’d be punting less than with Sanders, he’d have more opportunities than Barry. Maybe more than he had in Dallas. But without Aikman and the other great Cowboys he wouldn’t have won 3 Super Bowls, and team wins were more important to Smith than personal stat accumulation was. That’s why he sold out and sacrificed his body throughout his career to pass block the way he did.

I don’t think Sanders would have done as well at Dallas as Smith did, assuming they retained their real life system. Their power running system was built upon physical runs up the middle. Sure their line, which was eventually great, often opened up holes. But holes only get you so far. Smith broke an enormous amount of tackles. He may have gained more yards after contact than anyone since Earl Campbell (and he was more fluid and elusive than Campbell). He was at least in the ballpark of Walter Payton. Smith was incredibly strong and had a low center of gravity. In his prime Smith would slam into and push the pile back. Defenders talked about how much it hurt to keep tackling Smith over the course of a game compared to other running backs. A young defender spoke in an interview about how in tackling even a late 90s Smith it felt like he had almost gotten his arm torn off. Smith loved running up the middle. He thrived there, wearing down defenses.

By contrast Barry was a spread style back who thrived on open spaces. He was also a dancer. He passed up holes looking for better opportunities and potentially bigger gains, which is part of the reason why he holds the NFL record for negative plays. We know he rushed for fewer yards with a better O-line in his prime at Detroit than he did with a worse team in his final few years. It’s quite possible he would have run for fewer still at Dallas with a line that, while great, wasn’t a fit for his skill set.

Regardless, both Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith are all time greats. That you’re STILL resorting to comparing the two, as opposed to guys like Thurman Thomas, Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin, Edgerrin James etc., just shows that on some level even you know you were wrong to deny Smith’s greatness.

You’ve sustained quite a beating here. The most impressive thing you could do at this point would be to admit you were wrong on some of these issues. That would at least show open mindedness and a modicum of class.

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

“Put Barry Sanders in the Dallas system and his playoff numbers go up immediately…he would have posted not one but MULTIPLE 2,000-yd seasons, including a 2,500 yarder. No doubt in my mind.”

Oh, and in addition to your premise being wrong for reasons explained above, I almost forgot this gem. 2,500 yards?!?! “No doubt” in your mind, lol? Jim Brown, running behind a great star and HoF studded line, averaged 133.1 yards/game at his height, which would extrapolate to a 2,129.6 total over a 16 game season. Even OJ Simpson’s record 143.1 yards/game season would only extrapolate to 2,289.6. That’s the highest per game average of all time. There have been other great lines in history, and no one has ever hit 2,106, let alone gotten to the ballpark of 2,500.

For you to not only suggest this silly possibility but state that you have “no doubt” it would have happened is just more hilarious proof that you’re unserious and have no idea what you’re talking about.

• Rasputin
March 27, 2017

Oh and, Joseph Wright, are you really attacking Smith for “only” rushing for 937 yards and 9 TDs in his final year with the Cardinals? That’s about the same yardage and almost twice as many TDs as in his last year with the Cowboys. It was his 15th year in the league. Most RBs aren’t able to make the Pro Bowl 10 years into their careers like Smith did at age 30. Barry Sanders couldn’t bring himself to play at all after 10 years.

And are you claiming Mercury Morris was a dynastic, workhorse championship caliber back, lol? It’s fair to say he was a role player for a couple of years, but Larry Csonka was way more important to that Dolphins team. They didn’t build the franchise around Mercury Morris. The Dolphins made the Super Bowl the year before Morris had his first real season as a full time RB rather than primarily serving as a kick returner. The year before Emmitt Smith was drafted Dallas went 1-15. Two years later they’re in the playoffs and he has his first rushing title. Three years later they’re Super Bowl champions. It’s fair to say Smith was way more important to the Cowboys 3 Super Bowl wins than Mercury Morris was to the Dolphins’ 2.

So sure, Sayers could have been a nice role player who rode an already good team to a ring, but that clearly wasn’t what I was talking about was it?

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

Smith gained 937 yards. Whoopty-Damn-Doo! He really tore up opponents for 58 yards a game! Are you serious? How you sound? Get back to me when you can give me documentation of Emmitt Smith running for at least 1,800 in a season or even 2,000. Then we can talk about whether he was the best back of his era (which he wasn’t. Hint: Barry Sanders) or one of the top 10 of all time (which he wasn’t. Jim Brown, Dickerson, O.J., Payton, Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell, LaDanian Tomlinson)

Mercury Morris was a key part of the Dolphins success in the early ’70s. Pass-catching was his liability. So, Gale Sayers definitely could have filled that role easily. he had the breakaway speed, was elusive, and could catch passes which would have eliminated Jim Kiick completely. Knee injuries don’t confirm lack of durability. they confirm the law of physics. if Emmitt Smith was ever hit in the knees he would have been deemed by you a “lacking durability.” After his first knee injury mid-season 1968, Sayers came back after surgery the very next year and led the league in rushing…with more than 937 yards…in 14 games.

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

LOL! Emmitt Smith was 35 and had delivered and taken 15 years of punishment by the time he ran for 937 yards and 9 TDs in his final season. Show me other backs who did that well that long into their careers. Here’s a sample:

Final Seasons

Emmitt Smith (age 35, 15th year) – 937 yards, 9 TDs
Walter Payton (age 33, 13th year) – 533 yards, 4 TDs
LaDainian Tomlinson (age 32, 11th year) – 280 yards, 1 TD
Earl Campbell (age 30, 9th year) – 630 yards, 1 TD
OJ Simpson (age 32, 11th year) – 460 yards, 3 TDs
Eric Dickerson (age 32, 11th year, final full season) – 729 yards, 2 TDs
Jerome Bettis (age 33, 13th year) – 368 yards, 9 TDs
Thurman Thomas (age 34, 13th year) – 136 yards, 0 TDs
Tony Dorsett (age 34, 12th year) – 703 yards, 5 TDs
Marhsall Faulk (age 32, 12th year) – 292 yards, 0 TDs
Curtis Martin (age 32, 11th year) – 735 yards, 5 TDs

So keep talking about Smith’s final season. Make yourself look even more stupid than you already do.

I’m not sure what’s dumber, that you only list 9 players in your “top 10” (you gotta practice counting) or that you include guys like Marshall Faulk and Marcus Allen. “Marcus Allen”, lol? Marcus Allen only posted three 1,000 yard seasons in his 16 year career, and his best mark was 1,759. Smith’s was 1,773. I know he’s a Raider and you’re blindly biased, but for you to list Allen as a top 10 back over Smith in the same post where you’re arbitrarily claiming a RB has to have an 1,800 yard season to be a true all time great proves once again that you’re a faceplanting buffoon spewing BS even you don’t believe. Allen did post a respectable 830 yards and 9 TDs in his 15th and next to last season, but that’s still short of Smith.

Marshall Faulk never even cracked 1,400 rushing yards, and never won a rushing title.

You said: “Get back to me when you can give me documentation of Emmitt Smith running for at least 1,800 in a season or even 2,000.”

You’re so wrong that I could successfully meet your BS challenge as presented. Emmitt Smith rushed for 2,071 yards in the 1995 season and 2,049 yards in the 1992 season, counting the playoffs he got his team to, illustrating a point about priorities. He may not have technically hit the 1,800 yard regular season mark, but he was playing on a balanced team that also used its exceptional passing attack and they sat on the ball to play for time of possession.

Lots of other backs never hit 1,800 either, including some great ones like the aforementioned Marcus Allen and Marshall Faulk.

Emmitt Smith did surpass 1,700 yards twice and 1,400 yards five times. So if Emmitt had gained 27 more yards in 1995 you’d consider him an “all time great”, even if he had gained much fewer than he did in those other seasons, lol?

LaDainian Tomlinson only hit that 1,800 yard mark once (1,815), which was the only time he broke 1,700, so we’re really talking about a few dozen yards one way or the other here (statistical noise). Similarly Walter Payton had that one 1,800 yard season, in which he won his only rushing title, and never even got to 1,700 yards again.

Curtis Martin never cracked 1,700 yards. Jerome Bettis never hit 1,700 and only passed 1,400 three times. John Riggins never got to 1,400 yards. Roger Craig only rushed for more than 1,100 once, when he posted 1,502. Edgerrin James’ highest total was 1,709. Thurman Thomas’ highest total was 1,487. Tony Dorsett’s highest total was 1,646.

Gale Sayers’ highest total was 1,231. Sure that was in a 14 game season, but Emmitt only played 14 games when he posted 1,486 yards and won the 1993 rushing title. Mercury Morris’ highest total was 1,000 even.

Franco Harris never cracked 1,300. Larry Csonka never cracked 1,200. Adrian Peterson had that one awesome 2,097 year, but counting that he’s only surpassed 1,400 three times. By your logic was he less than great outside of that one season? Similarly the great Earl Campbell only surpassed 1,400 yards three times, and that 1,934 season was the only time he reached 1,700. Jim Taylor’s highest total was 1,474, one of only 2 times he cracked 1,300.

These are mostly HoFers I’m listing, the greatest of all time.

I also love how you imply Emmitt was “only” the second best RB of his era, probably because you realized mentioning anyone besides Barry Sanders there would have made you look silly even by your own lofty standards. I disagree with you, but either way you’re a true great if you’re in the top 2 of your very long era.

That’s all without getting into Emmitt Smith’s insane yearly TD totals or the other records and feats I listed above that vault him over the guys you list, including single game and season ones. And, it’s funny you’re placing all your emphasis on yardage totals given how you started this debate by whining about a shallow glance at “numbers”, but you never did address or try to refute my argument about consistency in gains being even more important to a RB than yardage totals or a y/c average. Mounting a serious effort to do so would require more brain power than you’re apparently equipped with.

It looks like we agree Sayers could have been a nice role player on a championship team, but you’ve provided no evidence he could have been the type of workhorse franchise back that can put a team on his shoulders and carry it to sustained dynastic glory. Maybe he replaces Kiick, but not Csonka, and even Csonka had a lot of help.

Emmitt Smith, by contrast, was a freak of nature on the durability front, as the facts at the top of this post show.

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

So, the only way Emmitt gets 1,800+ yards rushing is if you add the playoff totals. This isn’t college or high school, junior. How desperate. LMAO!! You still have cowardly avoided the question and the facts:

1) How would the ’90s Lions have done with Emmitt as the primary ballcarrier?

2) Emmitt’s “All-American” collegiate career
A. Never led the nation in rushing (Marcus & Barry did)
B. Never gained 2,000 yards in a season (Marcus & Barry did)
C. Never won the Heisman (Marcus & Barry did)

Jim Brown (1996)–“Emmitt can play (well) on certain teams. Barry could play (well) for any team in any era.”

Gale Sayers on Emmitt Smith (1993)–“good running back, great offensive line.”

And get back to me on Larry Wilson’s “great” work as a coach and front office guy with the Cardinals. Give me the number of years, number of playoff appearances, and number of Super Bowl championships. Perhaps Brown and Sayers could have done better if given the same opportunities.

• Rasputin
March 29, 2017

I’m still laughing over your “top 10” running back list only containing 9 names. You better hurry up and scramble to come up with a 10th name other than Emmitt Smith so you don’t have to backtrack again, lol.

I answered your question, Little Joey Wrong, though you’re still dodging mine, you cowardly halfwit. You don’t read any better than you can count. And my list of Emmitt Smith accomplishments, all either unmatched or placing him among the greatest NFL players of all time, is much, much longer than your repetitive, already refuted crap.

Jim Brown – “If anyone wants to test my speed, they can put me up against Franco anytime. I may be 47, but I can still beat him.”

Franco Harris went on to beat the petty, delusional Jim Brown by 7 yards in the 40 yard dash, humiliating him on national television. “Credibility”, lol?

Gale Sayers – Delicate….seriously injured multiple times in a career with only 991 carries and never rushed for more 1,300 yards a season. Made of glass. Also never a scout/GM/ or a coach, so who cares what he says? A lot of players like the flash and are just as susceptible to hype as bottom feeding fans are, especially if they were flashy runners themselves. On some level they feel it validates them. The truth was Sayers was great. He was awesome. But he wasn’t as great a RB as Emmitt Smith.

Larry Wilson (scout, 17 year GM, coach, HoF safety; at least he had the inclination to do those other jobs and was good enough to keep employed in that realm for many years) – “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.”

As for Emmitt Smith, if you were open minded the voluminous evidence and cogent arguments I’ve provided for you here would have already convinced you that he wasn’t merely a “slightly above average back” or a “fraudulent player” at any level of football. For anyone else reading this who may want additional takes though, there’s an interesting piece on the NY Times’ stat based Fifth Down blog (google up: Emmitt Smith Overrated? Not So Fast) refuting the “he just played on a great team” myth, and a 1997 Pro Football Researchers article on why Barry Sanders IS overrated I hadn’t read before that makes some of the same arguments I do about his lack of consistency and why not all yards are equally important, though they’re comparing him not just to Smith but guys like Terrell Davis, Jerome Bettis, and Jim Brown (search: THE COFFIN CORNER, Vol. 19, No. 6 (1997) The Greatest ever! Bob Carroll).

• Joseph Wright
March 29, 2017

Alright. Emmitt is not one of the top ELEVEN RBs of all time (Jim Brown, Dickerson, O.J., Payton, Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell, LaDanian Tomlinson, Terrell Davis, Adrian Peterson). BTW, for Emmitt, the line starts BEHIND Edgerrin James, Roger Craig, and Tony Dorsett.

Get back to me with The records of the teams Larry Wilson “successfully” built. How many winning seasons did they produce? How many division titles did they win? How many Super Bowls did they claim?

And the 1997 article on Sanders being “overrated?” Was that before, during, or after he got the 2,053 yards (2,000 over the last 14 games; Emmitt never did that; and Lomas Brown was long gone)? You’re ridiculous. The ’90s Lions would have been NOTHING with Emmitt Smith. Barry gave the Lions whatever relevancy they had, post-Billy Sims.

• Rasputin
March 29, 2017

See? You’re hopelessly closed minded and full of BS even you probably don’t believe. At least you finally managed to get 10 names in your “top 10” list this time (practice counting helps), and at least an “1,800” yard season, or even a 1,600 yard one isn’t something you really believe is necessary anymore, moron (“Roger Craig”, lol?).

If Smith had played for Detroit he would have started off at least with a better team than the 1-15 Cowboys who drafted him, and while he may not have ultimately won 3 Super Bowls, he no doubt would have continued having the same general success he had in high school and college, dominating the NFL.

• Rasputin
April 3, 2017

Oh, and while it’s obvious to anyone who actually reads it, since you asked, that 1997 article I cited was MOTIVATED by the ongoing 1997 season and a response to the hype surrounding what Sanders was doing.

• Joseph Wright
April 4, 2017

Motivated by idiotic, moranic haters at the worst; Emmitt butt-kissers at the least.

• Rasputin
April 4, 2017

Actually the article barely mentions Smith and is more about comparing Sanders unfavorably to Terrell Davis and Jim Brown, but the argument conceptually echoes what I’ve been saying here. Look up the author “Bob Carroll”. He passed away in 2009, but was a long respected historian and football researcher who authored over 20 books.

• Joseph Wright
April 4, 2017

“Unfavorably to Terrell Davis?” Are you serious? Of all the single season 2,000-yd rushers (a level Emmitt Smith NEVER reached, despite running behind the most dominant run-blocking O-line of all time–translation: good back, not a great one), Davis had the lowest yards per carry average (a full yard behind Sanders), required nearly 60 more carries than Sanders just to get to 2,000, and–like Smith and unlike Sanders–played behind a superior run-blocking O-line. As for Jim Brown, Sanders is the only retired running back with per game and per carry output closest to Brown. You and Bob Carroll made fools of yourselves. Barry got 2,000 yards over the last 14 games of that season. Terrell Davis needed ALL 16 games to get to that mark. If you took out the first two games of that 1997 season (Sanders only gained 53 yards as Bobby Ross shackled him), Barry STILL has 2,000 yards. Unless Davis had only 8 yards after the first two games, don’t bring up this nonsense again. About as ridiculous as adding (padding?) playoff games to say, “Emmitt had 2,000+ yards in 1992 and 1995.” Yeah, right. Took him 19 games to do it. Embarrassing. Stat-padding is a way of life in Dallas, huh? (Emmitt–1991 rushing title, NFL career rushing record; Romo passing totals; The ’70s Harris secondary NFL pass defense rankings vs. inferior QBs…)

• Rasputin
April 4, 2017

Guess you’d have to read the article to see him explain why not all yards are equal, or some of my posts here explaining the same thing. You’re the one making a fool out of yourself by wasting multiple posts blindly complaining about an article you haven’t even read, along with your posts here failing to put enough mental effort into grasping my similar points.

Hint – yards/carry isn’t the most important factor you seem to assume it is. Heck, you apparently think it’s the ONLY factor. I guess when you started this debate by attacking Bachslunch for “numbers, numbers, numbers”, you were implying that it should be replaced by “number”.

• Joseph Wright
April 4, 2017

I can’t find the thing. Obviously, Google doesn’t find it worthy to mention–sort of like Jack Tatum wasn’t impressed by any Cowboys except Tom Landry.

• Rasputin
April 4, 2017

Or you suck at research and are incompetent at basic tasks even after I’ve spoonfed you directions. Given our respective track records, that’s the far likelier possibility.

• Rasputin
March 27, 2017

You’re all *crickets* on this inconvenient fact that obliterates your entire asinine safety argument, Joseph Wright.

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g
Raiders – 159.26 y/g

You were the one spewing all those lines about judging Tatum and Harris by passing yards allowed. Maybe you should change your name to Joseph Wrong.

• Joseph Wright
March 27, 2017

“The Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was the most violent and physical in the NFL.” That’s good hyperbole. The ’70s Cowboys were a media-hyped, over-the-top pomp and circumstance creation that too many people bought into. The most violent and physical defenses of the ’70s were the Steelers and the Raiders. Dallas was a finesse team. Great pass rush but that’s about it.

The 217-yard passing performance you keep harping on against the Raiders came on the strength of Denver receiver Haven Moses’ performance (168 yards) against rookie cornerback Lester Hayes. Hooray! Great game, Haven! That was the only 100-yd receiving playoff game the Raiders’ (or any) secondary allowed under Jack Tatum’s watch (13 games). On the other hand…

During Cliff Harris’s administration at free safety for the Cowboys. Dallas was zinged and pasted for FIVE 100-yd receiving games, giving up yards and touchdowns in historic, record-breaking fashion at times. With Harris “intimidating” and “covering” (“Doctor” Z said he was the best combination of hitting and coverage, right?): Swann went for 100 yards both times with MVP honors, two TDs, a game-winning 64-yd bomb, and highlight footage that put him in the Hall;Stallworth put up 115 yards and two TDs in the FIRST HALF of SB XIII, including a then record-tying 75 yard sprint, leaving Harris in the dust (I remember THAT Cliff Harris Super Bowl Highlight on defense,LOL), with Swann tacking on another 124 and a TD of his own; Charley Taylor burns Dallas for 146 yards in the ’72 NFC Title game with 2 TDs, including a 45-yarder; Harold Jackson goobles up 116 yards catching passes in the ’76 divisional playoff from…Pat Haden–YEEESH! In Dallas! And It gets worse. John Stallworth’s 75-yard SB TD ties the record of tight end John Mackey, who scored from the same distance against–you guessed it–Cliff Harris and Dallas in Super Bowl V. In the ’73 NFC Title Game in Dallas John Gilliam takes a pass from from Tarkenton 54 yards for a TD. Bradshaw established single-game records for passing yards and TD passes in SB XIII (300+ yards, 4 TDs–Never did that to Tatum and the Raiders). His final game was the 1979 divisional playoff game in Dallas vs the L.A. Rams, the swan song to Cliff Harris’ sorry, overrated, undeservedly decorated career. First-time playoff starter, QB Vince Ferragamo, lights up the Harris-led secondary with three TD passes, covering 32, 43, and (the game-winner) 50 yards. The 50-yarder was right over the middle. That wouldn’t have happened with Jack Tatum. He was a better hitter/intimidator and, surprisingly, a better coverage man for interceptions. Yes, I know many great corners don’t have many INTs because teams throw away from them. But free safeties can roam anywhere. Tatum roamed to the right places to make the hits and the picks way more often than Harris. Did someone say something about passing yards and TDs? back to where you belong, junior. Captain Crash (ed and burned. LMAO)

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g
Raiders – 159.26 y/g

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

LOL! You’re squirming now, Joseph Wrong, but there’s no point in cherry-picking from a field where you’ve already lost. Of course the Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was more physical and violent than the Raiders’. I wouldn’t say Dallas having better stats necessarily proves that (the eyeball test does just fine), but your own yardage based argument has blown up in your face and you’re done. You can go now.

The Raiders secondary wasn’t even very good through most of Tatum’s career, let alone dominant. Charlie Waters was the big interception guy in the Cowboys’ secondary (still holds the career playoff record), but the truth is Cliff Harris was roughly twice as good as Jack Tatum (who wasn’t much better in coverage than the previously discussed Roy Williams, and whose “legacy” mostly stems from shallow publishing/media hype surrounding his post-career autobiographies), which may help explain why he went to twice as many Pro Bowls, won twice as many Super Bowls, and why his departure left the Cowboys much worse off while the Raiders actually improved when Tatum left.

You’re a mindless blowhard full of blustering BS here, just as you proved to be about Super Bowl XII, Lou Groza and Jim Brown’s line in general, Emmitt Smith, “numbers”, rushing supposedly not being affected by stat inflation, and countless other points on which you pretended to know what you were talking about and were objectively shown to be wrong. But at least it’s fun kicking you around.

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

Please explain how Jack Tatum whose prowess was as a hitter, not a cover man, had more INTs than Cliff Harris when they played the same amount of time? Can you explain how Tatum had not one but two INT seasons better than the best INT season of Cliff Harris’ career? And don’t bring up this “INTS are overrated” crap and then mention Deion Sanders and other CORNERBACKS. We are talking about SAFETIES. Stay focused. Could you let us know how Harris (supposedly, according to some fraudulant SI source who is called “the doctor,” the best combination of hitter/coverage man at free safety) was so “great” yet led secondaries that allowed playoff receiving and passing records to fall (Swann; Stallworth; Mackey; Bradshaw), gave up FIVE 100-yd receiving playoff games (Swann, 2; Stallworth, in ONE HALF; Charley Taylor; Harold Jackson), and get lit up by multiple no-names (John Gilliam-54-yd TD; Vince Ferragamo-to-RonSmith, 50-yd TD; Pat Haden-to-Harold Jackson) while Tatum led secondaries in 13 playoff games and gave up only ONE 100-yd receiving game and only one TD of over 50 yards or more? Tatum is undefeated in the Super Bowl. The ’70s Dallas Cowboys’ losing Super Bowl record is a good indication of the of the quality of Harris’ “intimidation” and “coverage.” You’re embarrassing. You gloat over Harris knocking out Rick Upchurch in Super BOWL XII. Upchurch was a scrub! The Raiders shut him out easily the game before! Contrast that with Tatum, who creamed Sammy White in SB XI the previous year. White had just led his conference in TD catches and was Offensive Rookie of the Year. And you’re bragging that Cliff Harris knocked out…Rick Upchurch? Good to kick you around some more. I feel like…Lou Groza. LMAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g
Raiders – 159.26 y/g

Pass Defense League Ranking

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

LOL! You’ve been checkmated and now you’re randomly pushing the pieces around the board in frustration. Bleat all you want about some cherry-picked game here or there. I mentioned specific games earlier too until I decided to utterly vanquish you with this short cut to the big picture. I’ll keep hitting you with those facts as long as you persist in digging your own hole deeper here, because knocking you around amuses me.

Again, Darren Woodson, a SAFETY, averaged fewer interceptions per year than Roy Williams. Woodson was a phenomenal coverage guy with 4.3 speed who could have played cornerback and who routinely shut down elite TEs and slot receivers one on one. Williams was terrible in coverage; so bad it led to his departure and his career fizzling out. For you to try to reduce coverage ability to interception counts just shows you don’t understand football. You’re an armchair “crazy Raiders Nation fan” who’s probably never played football but who’s probably dressed up or painted your face at some point, who’s more hype than substance, and now your team is leaving for another state, so you don’t even really have that anymore.

Cliff Harris was the best Dallas DB over the second half of the 70s. The cornerbacks were a rotating mix of guys like Benny Barnes, Aaron Kyle, Aaron Mitchell, etc., with Mel Renfro reduced to a backup role and retiring after 1977. Meanwhile the Raiders had guys like Willie Brown (HoF), Lester Hayes, and Monte Jackson. Tatum was definitely NOT the best Raiders DB.

If Tatum was such an effective coverage guy and invincible intimidator, then why did the Raiders get torched so often that they ranked near the league bottom in pass defense every year over the second half of the 70s?

Why were they not even good enough to make it to another Super Bowl until after Tatum left?

Given the above, it’s unsurprising that the Dallas pass defense dropped from elite to mid pack immediately after Cliff Harris retired, while the Raiders improved and won the Super Bowl after Tatum left. A fact you can’t explain.

Cliff Harris really was twice as good as Jack Tatum, and undeniably more important to his team.

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

Cliff Harris was the Cowboys best DB in the last half of the ’70s. You’re right. Thats why they lost to Pittsburgh twice, getting toasted by Swann and Stallworth for record playoff numbers in the process. That never happened to the Raiders with Tatum back there. Lester Hayes was never better than Jack Tatum in the ’70s. For three years (’77-79), he was a converted linebacker/strong safety learning to be a corner. The liabilities of his learning process were exposed by Denver’s Haven Moses in the ’77 AFC Title game. Hayes turned it around dramatically in the ’80s. Tatum was better than Willie Brown by the late ’70s. I can’t believe you actually were so stupid as to even mention Monte Jackson as a better player than Tatum. You’re making a fool of yourself.

The pass defense stats are misleading. It’s based entirely total yards without factoring in passing percentage, TD/INT ratios, sacks, etc. Sometimes, defenses give up underneath yardage. Sometimes a team is far ahead (as the ’70s Raiders often were) and the opposing team is passing the ball on every down. And in the ’70s, especially from the midpoint on, the AFC had better QBs and passed the ball more often than the NFC. Additionally, going twice a year against the likes of Ron Jaworski, Joe Pisarchik, Jerry Golsteyn, and and over-the-hill QBs like Kilmer and Roman Gabriel will enhance the stats of any secondary (Dallas) and help a player’s reputation (Harris). Speaking of over-the-hill QBs…

The Raiders and Cowboys matched up once in the ’70s, on a special Saturday Night Edition of Monday Night Football (you know Monday Night Football, junior? Where Barry Sanders showed up Emmitt Smith on NATIONAL PRIMETIME TV). The Raiders beat the Cowboys–of course–as the Cliff Harris-led secondary gave up three TD passes. The Tatum-led Raiders secondary gave up none–of course– and held Staubach well under 50 percent in passing. What’s worse for your case with Harris, with him manning the secondary they allowed a 28-yd touchdown pass to Cliff Branch–from 1,000-year-old George Blanda! LOL!! LMAO!!! LMFAO!!!

• Rasputin
March 28, 2017

You said: “I feel like…Lou Groza.”

Annoyed that some blowhard moron on a message board insisted you were only a kicker and not an All Pro, HoF tackle? LMFAO!

PS – Oh and that may have been Rick Upchurch’s only catch in Super Bowl XII, but he was the Broncos’ biggest playmaker by far due to his returns.

• Joseph Wright
March 28, 2017

No, numbskull. I was Lou Groza kicking you and your sorry notions out of the park.

Upchuch did NOTHING against the Raiders two weeks prior and was a nonfactor and you’re going on and on about Harris knocking out a nonfactor. Couldn’t he have hit John Mackey or Lynn Swann or John Stallworth–all of whom Tatum hit (and knocked out and defeated) repeatedly?

• Rasputin
March 29, 2017

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g
Raiders – 159.26 y/g

Pass Defense League Ranking

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

LOL! From 21st with Tatum to 19th and the Super Bowl without him, while Dallas falls from 3rd with Harris to 16th without him. Keep squirming around trying to cherry-pick individual games. Earlier I posted anecdotal instances of Tatum’s secondary getting torched and Cliff Harris knocking out players and/or shutting teams down, but now I’ll just save time by hitting you with the above sledgehammer every time you rear your head with more blather on this topic. You lost, Joey. You can’t spin or lie your way out of this.

You said: “Tatum is undefeated in the Super Bowl.”

He only made it to one, you idiot, LOL! Tatum kept losing and not even making it to the Super Bowl. You’re like the fictional propagandist in the old joke about Pravda announcing that the Soviets had come in 2nd place in the athletic contest while the USA had finished next to last, omitting the fact that there were only 2 nations competing.

The weakness of the Raiders in the 1970s was their pass defense. They were often in the top 10 in rush defense and total offense, but they typically gave up more passing yards than most teams in the league. The evidence suggests an upgrade at FS would have benefited them enormously.

You said: “I can’t believe you actually were so stupid as to even mention Monte Jackson as a better player than Tatum. You’re making a fool of yourself.”

I said the second half of the 70s, and Monte Jackson did make 2 Pro Bowls then, in 1976 and 1977, was first team AP All Pro in 1976, and led the NFL in your preferred stat of interceptions with 10. By contrast Tatum made zero Pro Bowls or All Pro teams in that span.

Monte Jackson was still starting CB on the 1980 Raiders with their improved pass defense (sans Tatum). Paired with Lester Hayes, who had been a full time starting CB since 1978, they won the Super Bowl. They didn’t seem to miss a beat with Tatum being replaced by journeyman FS Burgess Owens. How about that?

You said: “The pass defense stats are misleading. It’s based entirely total yards without factoring in passing percentage, TD/INT ratios, sacks, etc. ”

One can almost picture you stammering your way through that line and fighting back tears. After all, YOU were the one who spent all those posts basing your entire argument on passing yards surrendered, moron. You’re STILL DOING IT with cherry-picked individual games. I’ve cited all sorts of other evidence boosting the case for Harris being better than Tatum, but it’s even more fun when your own logic completely annihilates your position like this. Your “credibility” is shot.

And the pass defense ranking gaps are huge, not something you can spin away anyway. The Cliff Harris-led Cowboys were among the NFL’s best pass defense in the 1970s, while the CB-led Raiders (dragging along Tatum as a burden for a while) were often among the league’s worst.

PS – Nah, my Groza comment makes more sense since you admittedly knew almost nothing about the guy and you’ve done nothing but serve as my clownish punching bag here.

The entire Broncos passing attack was a “non factor” against the Cowboys in the Super Bowl, as Doomsday held them to 35 yards. In their previous game they had torched Tatum’s secondary for 217 passing yards. But in SB XII Rick Upchurch did have a 67 yard KO return that sparked Denver’s only TD, before Harris knocked him out. Upchurch had also ranked #6 in the league that year in all purpose yardage and was one of Denver’s most important playmakers.

• Joseph Wright
March 29, 2017

The Raiders give up only 14 more yards per game, playing in a conference that had better QBs and passed the ball more, and you’re all excited? If Tatum and the crew had to face the likes of Ron Jaworski, Joe Pisarchik, Gerry Golsteyn, Billy Kilmer (although he did a number on the Harris-led Dallas secondary with Charley Taylor New Year’s Eve ’72–more on that later), and Roman Gabriel (Philadelphia) four times a year and an overall weaker NFC (who was there in the ’70s besides the Vikings and the Rams?), I’m guessing the yardage allowed per game would be better. You’re excited over a 14 yard per game difference? Fourteen yards? That’s one pass completion! How moronic.

Yes, Monte Jackson had two Pro Bowl seasons–with the Rams. The Raiders traded for him and he made absolutely no impact on that secondary. He was not the starting CB on the ’80 Raiders Super Bowl team. That was Dwayne O’Steen. Monte Jackson made two Pro Bowls to Tatum’s three and he’s better? Really? Were there two or more other years of Jackson’s career where he was robbed of Pro Bowl recognition? And during their two years together (in which Jackson was an off-and-on starter; he never really played well) Tatum, who self-admittedly was a weak pass thief, picked off more passes.

Prior to the 1980 season, Al Davis wanted a halfback to go with fullback Mark Van Eegan. He wasn’t satisfied with the HB of the last two years, Art Whittington. Davis wanted Houston’s Kenny King and offered Whittington. Bum Phillips insisted he would only give King to the Raiders if Jack Tatum was involved, not Whittington. Davis initially resisted, then bit the bullet and made the trade. Kenny King made many key plays for the Raiders in 1980 to help them win the Super Bowl. Had Phillips taken Whittington (Davis’ initial offer) for King, Tatum would have reaped the benefits of another Super Bowl ring easily. And it’s not like the Raiders’ pass defense skyrocketed in the standings. You are all excited and trilled like an adolescent girl because the team went from 21st
to–oooh, big jump–19th. Pitiful display on your part. But those are regular season numbers. In the playoffs…

No Pravda joke, numbskull. Tatum was undefeated in the Super Bowl AND vs. the ’70s Cowboys (Harris had a LOSING record in the Super Bowl AND vs. Tatum’s Raiders; Explain those, Rasputin). Additionally, Tatum-led secondaries played in 13 playoff games and allowed only ONE 100-yd game by a receiver. Harris-led secondaries were torched FIVE times (Taylor, Swann–two times, Stallworth, Harold Jackson). With Tatum anchoring secondaries in the playoffs, only one receiver caught multiple TD passes and no records fell (Harris-led secondaries were invaded and toasted in the endzone multiple times by Charley Taylor, Lynn Swann and John Stallworth, gave up TWO then-SB-record 75-yd. TDs: Mackey, Stallworth; The first ever 300-yd performance by a QB: Bradshaw–or as Harris and Charlie Waters frustratedly, and wrongly, called him, “Dumbass Bradshaw”) and no QB torched them for 300 yards (Uh-oh! Wait! There’s Rasputin adding all FIVE of Bradshaw’s playoff games against the Raiders to give him 300+ passing yards against a Tatum secondary–hey, the same cowardly process got Emmitt’s sorry ass into the 2,000-yd. club!). In the only Raiders-Cowboys game of the ’70s, Staubach completed less than half his passes against the Tatum-led secondary and no TD passes. The Harris-led secondary of the Cowboys was burned for three TDs, including a 28-yd. touchdown to Cliff Branch–from 1,000-year-old George Blanda! Way to go Captain Crash(ed and burned)! LOL! LMAO!! LMFAO!!!

As for your ’70s Cowboys Hall of Fame candidates:

Cliff Harris–Overrated. The Great Wall of Dallas made Emmitt Smith, the Doomsday pass rush of Harvey Martin, Randy White, and Too Tall Jones inflated the images, undeservedly, of Harris and Charlie Waters.
Tatum, by contrast, had Art Thoms, Tony Cline, Horace Jones, Otis Sistrunk, Dave Rowe, and John Matuszak–mean, colorful, intimidating, yes. Did they bring the heat like Howie Long, Greg Townsend, Lyle Alzado, Sean Jones, and Bill Pickel, no.

Drew Pearson–Didn’t experience the joy of catching a TD in the endzone on December 21, 1974. Branch and Biletnikoff did. That’s the difference between facing a secondary with Jack Tatum at FS instead of Cliff Harris. And he really pushed off on Nate Wright to make the Hail Mary happen. Regardless, should be in the Hall. Much more impactual WR than Art Monk or Cris Carter.

Chuck Howley–Not a Hall of Famer, but I’m sure he’s taking good care of Mike Curtis’ Super Bowl V MVP trophy at his house. Chuck’s that kind of guy.

Later, junior.

• Rasputin
March 29, 2017

No, little Joey Wrong, it gets worse.

Passing Yards Allowed Per Game 1971-1979

Cowboys – 145.75 y/g

NFL Average – 155.76 y/g

Raiders – 159.26 y/g

We’ve proved you suck at math, but I tried to explain to you earlier that those “14 yards” are a statistical big deal when counting 9 years worth of games. The Cowboys’ pass defense was way better than average, while the Raiders were WORSE THAN THE LEAGUE AVERAGE.

Meanwhile the Raiders faced divisional opponents like BOTH the expansion Buccaneers and expansion Seahawks, LOL! The Chiefs’ Len Dawson only started a little into the decade, with Mike Livingston being the team’s primary 1970s QB. The Chargers had Fouts, but he didn’t lead the league in yards or make his first Pro Bowl until 1979. The only Broncos QB worth mentioning was Craig Morton, who never made a Pro Bowl but is in the Denver ring of honor for leading that team to victory over the Raiders and to a Super Bowl, where they were crushed by Doomsday and his former Cowboys team in one of the most dominant defensive performances in SB history, a game widely considered to be the hardest hitting SB of all time.

In fact….

Combined Divisional Opponent QB Pro Bowls 1971-1979

Cowboys (Redskins, Eagles, Cardinals, Giants) – 8 Pro Bowls

Raiders (Bucs, Seahawks, Broncos, Chargers, Chiefs) – 3 Pro Bowls

8 to 3, and these are the guys they each played TWICE A YEAR! I’m also only counting Pro Bowls earned at the particular team during the span in question. Once again, as has so often proved the case, the truth is the opposite of your claim. The teams’ overall strength is telling too:

Combined 1971-1979

NFC East (excluding Cowboys) – 9 playoff seasons, 14 winning seasons

AFC West (excluding Raiders) – 5 playoff seasons, 12 winning seasons

Half those AFC West winning seasons and most of those playoff seasons were delivered by the Broncos, all of whose playoff trips came with Craig Morton at QB. So the former Cowboy and Giant was probably the most relevant divisional QB opponent the Raiders faced during that span.

The Raiders had a lot of interceptions, I’ll give you that. But they were playing inferior competition. Despite that, they still surrendered more passing yards than the league average and waaaay more than the Cowboys did. The Raiders allowed 1,756 more passing yards than Dallas in that span. That’s an entire extra season worth of yardage by 1970s standards, despite the Cowboys facing a combined 8 Pro Bowl divisional QBs while the Raiders faced only 3. That’s an entire extra season worth of yardage by 1970s standards. Teams couldn’t have been THAT afraid of the Raiders to routinely torch them like that.

Despite the tougher competition, the Cowboys posted winning seasons every year during that span, won the division 6 times, and made the playoffs 8 out of the 9 years. The Jack Tatum Raiders missed the playoffs 3 times and won their weaker division 5 times.

You said: “Tatum was undefeated in the Super Bowl”

So were the Seahawks, Mr. Pravda. However, Tatum lost too much to even make the playoffs for a third of that 9 year span. When he did manage to make the postseason, he lost in either the divisional or conference title round every year but once. By contrast the Cowboys won 4 conference championships from 1971-1979 with Cliff Harris as a starter, and 2 Super Bowls.

That you’re insisting it’s better to lose so much you don’t even make it to the Super Bowl every year but one than to make it 4 times as often and win twice as many SBs just shows what a sniveling, cowardly, little girl you are.

And I love how you keep harping on ONE meeting the Cowboys and Raiders had in that span. That was at Oakland in 1974, the ONLY year the Cowboys missed the playoffs in the 1970s (with an 8-6 record), while the Raiders went 12-2 that season. Dallas did play and beat the Raiders in 1980 at Oakland. That was Oakland’s Super Bowl year. Harris and Tatum weren’t there, but it goes to show that a single match up doesn’t always determine the better team, especially during the regular season.

What’s funny is that the Cowboys and Raiders only played twice from 1971-1980, both games at Oakland, the first in the only year Dallas missed the playoffs in the 1970s and the second the year Oakland won the SB. It was very lucky scheduling. You were fortunate you didn’t have to play the Cowboys in one of their Super Bowl years, or at Dallas. Despite that….THE COWBOYS GOT THE SPLIT! LMFAO! They lost the first game by 4 points and won the second by 6.

It’s pathetic that you’re trying to brag about that. Nothing for you to be proud of there.

You said: “He was not the starting CB on the ’80 Raiders Super Bowl team. That was Dwayne O’Steen. Monte Jackson made two Pro Bowls to Tatum’s three and he’s better?”

Wrong. Monte Jackson started 10 games in 1980. Dwayne O’Steen was a journeyman backup who filled in when he got injured. Jackson returned to his starting job the following year. Regardless, they managed to win the Super Bowl without Tatum.

I said Monte Jackson was better than Tatum in the second half of the 70s. His Pro Bowls were a lot more recent than Tatum’s. And while interceptions aren’t the same as coverage ability, since you’re hung up on them Lester Hayes had more interceptions than Tatum in the years they overlapped on the Raiders.

In fact Oakland’s total defense improved from 24 interceptions in 1979 with Tatum to a league leading 35 interceptions in 1980 without Tatum. Doesn’t seem like Tatum was critical to those interceptions so much as a beneficiary of circumstances, does it?

The rest of your post is childish trolling that merits no response. Of course Howley (who’s probably more busy polishing up his Super Bowl VI ring, moron, in which he was considered for MVP again) and Harris belong in the HoF, and are more deserving than some Raiders already in (e.g. Dave Casper, Ken Stabler). You gotta put more effort into it than that. Don’t just make vapid assertions, provide arguments.

I’ll add that the Raiders were always buttressed by hype, especially from the NFL films “Autumn Wind” poem onward. I actually like the Raiders mystique and respect the franchise’s history. They were sometimes great, but the Cowboys were even greater. It’s not even close, as all the facts posted here show. That you’ve been influenced by the hype is clear from how detached from reality you’ve objectively proved to be on issues ranging from the old Cleveland Browns, to what happened in Super Bowl XII, to your clinging to a low brow, long since debunked narrative about Emmitt Smith that mostly just gets repeated by shallow morons who rarely if ever watched him play in his prime, to your fantasies about the teams’ respective 1970s defenses, etc..

You’re too small a man to admit it here, but hopefully this beating you’ve taken, which has undeniably been educational for you on numerous topics, will benefit you in the long run.

• Joseph Wright
March 30, 2017

First off, I said the AFC was a stronger CONFERENCE than the NFC in the ’70s. I was talking about the overall AFC, not the AFC West, reading comprehension obviously is not your strong point. The ’70s AFC was a stronger conference, had better QBs, and passed the ball more. Additionally, the Raiders secondary was the strongpoint of their defense. The lack of pass rush by the line allowed for more completions. Yet they still managed to shut down the likes of Terry Bradshaw, something Dallas couldn’t EVER do. The yardage they were giving up was between the 20s. But divisionally, playing against the likes of Ron Jaworski, Joe Pisarchik, Jerry Golsteyn, and an aging Roman Gabriel (with the ample aid of an awesome pass rush) is going to make a weak secondary like the ’70s Cowboys look better than what they were.

Why was the Tatum-led secondary able to shut down the Pittsburgh passing game of Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth and the Harris-led secondary of the Cowboys constantly got cremated? The Tatum-led secondary beat the Steelers the last three consecutive times they faced them. Dallas couldn’t even win ONE game vs. Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth. Explain that (Tatum-led secondaries vs. Bradshaw/Swann/Stallworth Steeler Dynasty, 4-2; Harris-led secondaries vs. Bradshaw/Swann/Stallworth Steeler Dynasty, 0-4).

Once again, in the playoffs, Tatum-led secondaries (in 13 games) allowed: only ONE 100-yd receiving game to a receiver, only one receiver to score multiple TDs (either in one game or over a series of games), no QB to pass for 300 yards in a game, and no passing or receiving records fell under Tatum’s watch. Cliff Harris’ toastings have been highlighted constantly. Why was the Tatum secondaries’ playoff coverage performances SO much better than the Harris’ seccondaries? Explain that.

Why/how did Jack Tatum, not known as a pass thief, have more INTs than the allegedly “better coverage free safety” Cliff Harris in the same length of career? Why/how did he have not one but TWO INT seasons better than Cliff Harris’ high-water INT season? And why does his INT return yards more than double Harris’ (It’s not like Tatum was Deion Sanders)? We’re talking about two free safeties with no coverage responsibilities. Not cornerbacks or even strong safeties that can be thrown AWAY from. Tatum had the superior instincts and abilities to get to where he had to be to make the hits or INTs happen. Harris had the Cowboys’ propaganda machine (“America’s Team”) to undeservedly elevate Harris’ status in the eyes of the AP nitwits who failed to see what was happening.

Ken Stabler and Dave Casper are legitimate Hall of Famers. Harris and Howley are on the outside because they are not.

• Rasputin
April 1, 2017

No, moron. I wasn’t quoting you about the divisions. I brought up the divisional angle because it was more important than your “conference” claim. The AFC West was far weaker than the NFC East, including in the passing game. These account for most of each team’s games.

You didn’t even try to support your “conference” claim anyway. As usual you just made some assertion you hadn’t put any thought into. Presumably you’re assuming the AFC was better than the NFC because it won more Super Bowls, but that’s mostly because of Pittsburgh. The Steelers and Colts were old NFL teams that were switched to the AFC after the merger to help balance things out.

The Dolphins and Raiders were old AFL teams that won the Super Bowl, but apart from them every Super Bowl from 1970 until 1997 was won by an old NFL team. Think about that. The AFC may have had a couple of more elite teams on top in the 1970s, but don’t assume because of that that it was a better conference from top to bottom. It wasn’t.

You’re mostly just repeating yourself, Joseph. I could keep doing that too, though I have a lot more facts to choose from and mine are more pertinent. To wit….

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

The Tatum Raiders only had to face 3 Pro Bowl divisional opposing QBs in that near decade span. That’s it! The Cliff Harris Cowboys had to face more than twice as many. One of those Pro Bowls was supplied by Roman Gabriel, whom you again idiotically demean. The “aging” Gabriel led the NFL in passing yards and TDs in 1973.

The Raiders padded their stats by playing inferior competition, and yet still ranked well below the league average in passing defense, while the Cowboys ranked among the NFL’s elite.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

The Tatum secondary surrendered almost 2,000 more yards than the Cliff Harris secondary did, and several hundred more yards than the AVERAGE NFL team did. The reason the gaps in those per game averages I posted earlier matter is because otherwise things tend to even out over time. All teams have their ups and downs. But that such a gap persisted between the Cowboys and Raiders over 130 games and 9 years indicates a significant difference in quality. Perhaps posting the raw yardage totals helps better illustrate that for you.

I think it’s hilarious that you don’t think free safeties ever have coverage responsibilities, and that their coverage skills apparently don’t matter. You’re also pretending that a single WR’s performance is somehow more important than a team’s total passing performance, when if anything (even by your own logic) when discussing free safeties rather than CBs in a man to man scheme it should be the other way around. You’ve never played football before and you don’t know much about it. Have you ever played any sports, like maybe soccer or Tee Ball as a kid? Have you ever even competed seriously in anything, like chess…well obviously not chess…but maybe dominoes or Go Fish? Table tennis perhaps? Mario Kart? Have you ever even been in a fight? Do you understand the physics of competition? Or to you is “Raiders Nation” Sunday just a chance to play dress up, sort of a Mad Max cosplay?

On interceptions….Roy Williams averaged more than Darren Woodson. Williams was so terrible in coverage that it ended his career, while Woodson was great in coverage. Interceptions are great; they’re legitimate feathers in both Roy Williams’ and Jack Tatum’s hats (even more so Charlie Waters, who was also a smarter, better coverage guy than both). But intercepting isn’t the same thing as coverage ability. It happens too rarely and is often fluky. Even the Raiders’ interceptions increased the year after Tatum left. Yawn…..you’re getting boring.

You’re still spinning your wheels trying to cherry-pick games hoping to distract from the big picture, but the Cowboys rarely played the Steelers. Both those Super Bowls were decided by 4 points. In the first one Dallas was a rebuilding Cinderella team that wasn’t even supposed to make the playoffs let alone the Super Bowl. Yet they darn near won the thing. Staubach’s Hail Mary had helped get them there.

The second one was different. The Cowboys were better than the Steelers. That game saw a royal screw job by the worst officiating crew in Super Bowl history. I remember watching Kobe Bryant elbow Bibi in the face right in front of the ref down the stretch in a clutch moment with the ref not doing anything, an event that turned that NBA series. It stuck with me. Something was wrong. Years later the ref confessed to having influenced games, including ones in those particular playoffs, because he was in bed with gamblers.

I don’t know whether Super Bowl XIII officials were nefarious or simply incompetent, but watching replays of that game I had the same feeling that I had watching that NBA playoff game. You had officials literally throwing themselves as blockers against DBs to spring Franco Harris for a TD (about his only good run of the day) and blatantly blowing a “passing interference” call against the Dallas CB when Lynn Swann HAD been thwarted on a play that either should have been a no call or offensive passing interference. Those things and some other bad calls decided that game. And it was still just 4 points.

Pittsburgh beat the Raiders by a larger (if still narrow) 6 point margin in the 1975 AFC title game, in which they passed for 215 yards against the Tatum secondary. Dallas held the Steelers to 190 yards and a 4 point margin in the next game, the Super Bowl.

The Steelers beat the Raiders 24-13 in the 1974 title game. Pittsburgh ran for 209 yards! The Steelers didn’t need to pass much because it was easier to run against the Raiders, a sign that Tatum’s squad was less physical than Doomsday. By contrast the Cowboys held the Steelers to 66 rushing yards in Super Bowl XIII, counting Franco Harris’ fraudulent 22 yard TD run. Pittsburgh had no choice but to air it out and the game became more of a shoot out.

The Raiders’ run defense ranked higher than its pass defense all but 2 years but from 1971-1979, but even its rush defense was fairly average, only ranking in the top 5 once. By contrast the Cowboys ranked consistently at or near the top in run defense. Contributing to stopping the run was one of the things Cliff Harris excelled at. It appears Tatum was able to contribute less than Harris.

The Harris Cowboys did beat the Steelers in 1972. Cliff Harris personally had both an interception and a 44 yard kickoff return. Pittsburgh didn’t have Lynn and Stallworth, but they did have Bradshaw, Harris, and most of the rest, WRs Ron Shanklin and Frank Lewis were future Pro Bowlers, and the Steelers did go 11-3 that year. Plus the Cowboys were missing Staubach that whole regular season.

The 1972 Bradshaw/Shanklin/Lewis Steelers also beat the Raiders TWICE that year, in the regular season and the playoffs.

The Raiders kept losing to the Steelers in the playoffs, but they also lost to Miami, whom the Cliff Harris Cowboys had crushed 24-3 in the Super Bowl a couple of years earlier (still the only team to hold its opponent out of the end zone in Super Bowl history), and to the Broncos in 1977, whom Doomsday obliterated the very next game.

Why did the 1980 Cowboys beat the Raiders (at Oakland to boot)? Were they better than the Raiders that year? These are two of the many questions you keep dodging.

See? You’re cherry-picking doesn’t work because I can always point to stuff like that, as well as the macro stats showing that the Cowboys were better than the Raiders.

1971 – 1979

Cliff Harris Cowboys – 4 SB appearances, 6 conference championship game appearances, 8 playoff seasons, 2 SB wins, 107 total wins

Jack Tatum Raiders – 1 SB appearance, 5 conference championship game appearances, 6 playoff seasons, 1 SB win, 99 total wins

And that’s despite Oakland playing in a much weaker division that included opponents like the 0-14 1976 Bucs (in the argument for worst team of all time) and expansion Seahawks, LOL!

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

Earlier you missed the point about me emphasizing the Raiders’ improvement from 21st to 19th without Tatum. I never said that was a big jump. What’s noteworthy is that it didn’t FALL numerous spots the way Dallas’ did when Harris retired. It even rose slightly.

Not only were the Cliff Harris Cowboys significantly better than the Tatum Raiders, overall and in pass defense, but Cliff Harris was way more critical to the Dallas pass defense than Tatum was to the Raiders pass defense. Little wonder then their difference in accolades:

Cliff Harris – 6 Pro Bowls, 3 first team AP All Pro selections, first team All Decade

Jack Tatum – 3 Pro Bowls

You lose, Joseph

PS – You said: “Ken Stabler and Dave Casper are legitimate Hall of Famers. Harris and Howley are on the outside because they are not.”

By your insipid logic Stabler hasn’t been a legitimate HoF for all these decades when he was excluded, lol. You’re still too lazy to present an actual argument to support your inane assertion. BTW, I didn’t say Stabler and Casper weren’t legitimate HoFers. I just pointed out that Chuck Howley and Cliff Harris are even more deserving of that honor.

And NFL Films, not some “Cowboys’ propaganda machine”, bestowed the “America’s Team” title right before the 1979 season, way too late to affect this comparison. No, the Raiders enjoyed the hype advantage when Tatum and Harris actually played. If anything the ensuing backlash over the “America’s Team” nickname fueled the rise of the anti-Cowboys bias that kept guys like Howley, Harris, Pearson, and Lee Roy Jordan (to bring things back on topic) out of the HoF. But the Cowboys had earned the title “America’s Team” on substance in the span of Cliff Harris’ career.

• Joseph Wright
April 3, 2017

For the record, I played organized team football and basketball in high school. I was a cornerback in football and a guard in basketball. As for your delusional response (after a long time of all the rest of us listening to crickets after my responses knocked you out the box), let’s break it down.

1) The conference claim is more important than the divisional claim because at the time the NFL’s scheduling system was more random and it hadn’t really figured out how to incorporate interconference opponents onto team schedules. During the ’70s, the Raiders were facing Ken Anderson, Len Dawson, Brian Sipe regularly and the secondary didn’t bottom out despite the lack of pass rush from its line. The Cowboys’ secondary, on the other hand, was immeasurably covered by a strong pass rush. But once again, as I keep emphasizing, those were REGULAR season numbers.

2) In the playoffs, however, Harris was exposed badly. Five 100-yard receiving games (Charley Taylor, Lynn Swann-2, Harold Jackson, John Stallworth); Recevers with multiple endzone invasions–that’s TDs, stupid (Taylor, Swann-over 2 games, Stallworth); Falling passing records (Then-Super Bowl record 75-yard TDs-John Mackey and Stallworth, first-ever 4-TD pass game by a QB AND first-ever 300 yard passing game by a QB–both in same game by, as Harris and Waters referred to him, “Dumbass Bradshaw.”). Once again, in 13 playoff games, Tatum-led secondaries gave up only ONE 100-yd game to a receiver, no playoff record passing or receiving ever fell, and only one receiver caught multiple TDs on the Tatum secondary. Tatum’s secondary shut down Fran Tarkenton in Super Bowl XI and kept Staubach under 50 percent passing and without a TD pass in ’74 (In the same game, BTW, the Harris-led secondary gave up three TD passes–two to Stabler and one to 1,000 year old George Blanda–LOL). Tarkenton and Staubach are great Hall of Famers. Harris and the Cowboys feasted off game-managing, fraudulent HOFer Bob Griese and Cowboy reject Craig Morton. Speaking of which…

3) In the ’77 AFC title game, it is well-documented that the game swung on an early whistle that negated a goalline Broncos fumble that the Raiders recovered. The Broncos scored on the next play and that proved to be the difference in their 20-17 win. On the controversial play in question, Denver running back Rob Lytle tried to hurl in from a yard out and was crushed and immediately coughed up the ball. Oh, by the way, the strong tackle that caused the fumble was made by–Jack Tatum.

4) Gabriel a “Pro Bowler” in 1973? Really? What did the Eagles win that year? Did they make the playoffs? Are you adding that other Eagle “Pro Bowl” QB Mike Boryla from 1975? Rasputin, you get my nomination for Numbskull of the Year. LMAO!!! The only divisional Pro Bowl QB that Harris had to deal with was Jim Hart in the mid-’70s. That’s it!

5) Isn’t it interesting, readers on the board, that Razzie has to go back to 1972–BEFORE the Steelers got Swann and Stallworth –to get Harris a victory over the Steelers. Tatum’s Raiders were 5-5 vs. the Steelers in the ’70s. Within that they were 5-2 vs. the Steelers with Swann and Stallworth in the mix and won the last three consecutive times they played. Neither Swann nor Stallworth ever recorded a 100-yd receiving game against the Tatum-led secondary and each man caught just one TD in their seven games against the Tatum-led secondary. Bradshaw never passed for more than one TD in ANY of these games and he never reached 300 yards. This seven-game stretch included a 17-0 Raiders shutout. Did Cliff Harris and the Cowboys ever shut out the Steelers? How is it that Swann and Stallworth were nonfactors against this supposedly “weak” Tatum-led secondary yet tattoed, burned, and bar-b-qed the supposedly “stronger” Harris-led secondary? We’ll be waiting for the answer.

6) What brand of Dallas crackpipe were you smoking when you wrote your, ahem, “response?” The ’78 Steelers were the best team in football, hands down (and I’m a Raiders fan). To say the Cowboys were the better team is pure, moronic, unbridled, lunacy. The Steelers were the team of the ’70s. PERIOD. I don’t want to here any “screwed by the refs” crap. Dallas ALWAYS gets the calls! Once the Steelers got Swann and Stallworth to expose Cliff Harris’ and Charlie Waters’ sorry asses, the Cowboys never beat Pittsburgh until 1985. Since you don’t like the quotes of Hall of Famers Jim Brown and Gale Sayers, maybe you’ll love this one from Hall of Famer Terry Bradshaw: “You know, the pass interference call on Swann, Jackie Smith’s drop in the endzone, blahzay, blahzay, blah. We kicked their (the Cowboys) ass. I know people don’t like to hear that but I get tired of being nice (diplomatic) about it. We kicked their ass. Get used to it, can’t change. We kicked their ass every time we played ’em. Bottom line. We kicked their ass.” Explain THAT fact! LMFAO!!!

7) Stabler is deservedly in the Hall of Fame. He torched Cliff Harris for two TDs and won the ’74game. Casper in deservedly in the Hall of Fame. Ghost to the Post is a classic. Harris, Howley on the outside. To quote a Hall of Famer: “Get used to it, can’t change it.”

• Rasputin
April 3, 2017

Speaking of “delusional”, my response came two days after your previous post (and immediately after I had enough free time to read it), the same number of days it’s taken you to respond here (“crickets”?) after my post completely eviscerating you and stomping the remains into the concrete for good measure. The date codes are there for “the rest of us” to see, moron, so while I wouldn’t make a big deal out of a couple days, you brought it up and clearly you’re projecting. I’m not sure if you’re really this mental or if you’re just a really lazy liar.

Assuming you really did play corner in “organized team football” (who words it like that, lol?), you must not have been the brains of the outfit if you don’t think free safeties have pass coverage responsibilities, including specific assignments from time to time depending on scheme and offensive alignment. In fairness if it was the 1970s or earlier when you played high school, city recreational, or whatever “organized team football” you played in your teenage years, concepts like “free safety” may not have yet worked their down from the NFL. Still, as someone who claims to have watched the NFL since 1975, that was a dumb thing for you to say even by your standards.

Dumber still is you returning here to the scene of your crushing defeat to embarrass yourself further.

1. No, the divisional facts are more important because they had to play those opponents twice each year. That’s an even bigger deal in 14 game seasons, when with 4 divisional opponents the division accounted for a majority (8) of a team’s games. At least you’re implicitly conceding that the NFC East was much stronger than the AFC West.

But you’re wrong about the conference too. You list 3 guys: Ken Anderson, Len Dawson, and Brian Sipe. Len Dawson barely played into the 1970s, making his only Pro Bowl of the decade in 1971. And Brian Sipe? Sipe made 1 Pro Bowl in his entire career, and it wasn’t until 1980, LOL! Ken Anderson made 2 Pro Bowls in the 1971-1979 span being discussed, but the Raiders played his Bengals less than once a year. Not that relevant compared to the divisional foes faced twice each year.

These are the best you’ve got? Seriously? HoF QB Fran Tarkenton, who was even briefly in the Cowboys’ division, was better than Ken Anderson. Not only did 3 of his 9 Pro Bowls and his first team All Pro selection come in the span being discussed, but Tarkenton was probably the second best NFL passer of the 1970s, next to only Staubach himself.

1972-1978, When Tarkenton and Anderson Overlapped (excluding Anderson’s rookie season for fairness)

Fran Tarkenton – 60% completion, 18,519 yards, 126 TDs, 81.5 rating

Ken Anderson – 56.5% completion, 16,913 yards, 104 TDs, 79.0 rating

So no, the Cowboys regularly faced much tougher QB competition from guys like Tarkenton, Jim Hart, Roman Gabriel, Norm Snead, Billy Kilmer, and Joe Theismann than your AFC crew.

2. Yawn. You’re just repeating the same debunked, cherry-picked crap. First, you haven’t explained why individual WR stats (“hundred yard games”) are more important than total team passing performance, especially since we’re discussing free safeties. when a single WR goes off it usually has more to do with a CB being exploited than a FS. We’ve established that the Dallas CBs weren’t as good as the Dallas safeties, at least in the second half of the decade. By contrast the Oakland CBs were better than the Oakland safeties (including the overhyped Tatum). Sledgehammer time, boy.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

That’s all I really need to post. I posted anecdotal stuff earlier about Harris knocking someone out and Tatum getting torched (I’m the only one here who’s actually linked to game footage)….and I could add countless more stuff like Tatum getting carried for 4 yards trying to tackle Larry Csonka in the 1973 AFC Championship or only half heartedly reaching out with ONE hand to “try” to stop him when Csonka was barreling into the end zone (business decision?), or Harris stoning Walter Payton squared up one on one in the playoffs, but there’s no need. The above facts prove you wrong in crushing fashion, and your lame distraction attempts are futile.

Sure the Cowboys had a great pass rush, but that same pass rush was still in place in 1980 when their pass defense dropped from 3rd with Harris in 1979 to 16th without Harris. To have a truly dominant defense you need DBs as well as up front guys, as Dallas did in the Doomsday era. In fact they lost Too Tall in 1979 due to his decision to pursue a boxing career (6-0), and got him back in 1980 better than ever. Your hypothesis fails upon scrutiny.

“Tatum’s secondary” (more like Willie Brown’s secondary, helped by a good LB crew that was probably the real heart of their 3-4 defense) did beat the Vikings in the Super Bowl. And both times the Cowboys played Ken Anderson’s Bengals in the 1970s Dallas blew them out 38-10 and 38-13, respectively. The first game against Dallas was a year the Bengals were 10-4, one of their best seasons, but it didn’t matter. Doomsday had no problem whatsoever handling Ken Anderson. Meanwhile the Raiders never came close to beating the Bengals that bad. Most of their games against them were decided by less than a TD one way or the other.

You’re STILL moronically boasting about the 1974, 12-2 Raiders escaping their own stadium with a 4 point win over a rebuilding Dallas team in the only season of the decade in which Dallas (8-6) didn’t make the playoffs (you caught them at their lowest point), and you’re still too cowardly to answer my question about the 1980 Cowboys beating the SB champion Raiders by 6 points (also at Oakland), and what, if anything, you feel that proves about the respective teams.

Cliff Harris won more playoff games than Jack Tatum did. Tatum kept losing. And while some teams did torch “Tatum’s secondary” (like Craig Morton’s Broncos), others didn’t bother passing much because the Raiders defense was softer and easier to run against than…say…the Dallas defense was. They didn’t need to pass much to control the games and secure victories. Overall, however, despite padding their numbers playing inferior competition, the Tatum Raiders gave up a lot more passing yards than the Harris Cowboys did. That’s the bottom line. You lose by your own yardage based argument that launched this line of debate.

3. Plus the Tatum Raiders got torched with 224 passing yards by Craig Morton (217 net), who posted a 102.9(!) passer rating. In the next game the Cliff Harris Cowboys held the Broncos to 35 net passing yards and Morton to a 0.0 passer rating! That’s not a typo. Doomsday held him to 25.6% completion and literally a 0 passer rating. From 102.9 against Tatum to 0 against Cliff Harris. That’s quite a fall. If Tatum’s crew hadn’t gotten torched then it would have been Oakland getting crushed by Doomsday in the dome.

4. The Eagles’ Roman Gabriel led the NFL in yards and TDs and was a Pro Bowler in 1973. You giggling about it like a maniacal little girl won’t change that. As for overall team strength, you lose there too, remember?

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

5, That’s nice, but again that 11-3 1972 Bradshaw Steelers team beat the Raiders TWICE that year, and lost to the Cowboys, despite Dallas being without Staubach.

6. You said: “I don’t want to here any “screwed by the refs” crap.”

Says the idiot who just blamed your team’s loss to the 1977 Broncos on an “early whistle”. The reason Bradshaw was overly defensive is because so many HAVE pointed out how fluky the Steelers’ breaks were, and not just Dallas fans. What I said about the official obstructing the Dallas DBs and springing Franco is objectively true, and not many unbiased people try to defend that critical passing interference call. Regardless, it was a 4 point game, so his words are obviously untrue.

An ass kicking is what the Cowboys did to the 1977 Broncos and 1971 Dolphins. The Cowboys delivered more of an ass kicking to the Steelers in Super Bowl 30, which was at least a double digit victory that didn’t go down to the wire. I don’t think the 1978 Steelers were clearly the best team going in. Despite being injury riddled and not as good as the year before, Dallas still finished ranked #2 in both offense and defense, while the Steelers ranked #8 and #3, respectively. The Steelers did have a little better record but that’s not always definitive. Pittsburgh had looked dominant in the playoffs, but Dallas had just pasted the Rams 28-0 in the conference championship game.

It’s arguable either way, but Dallas shut down the Steelers running game cold while Pittsburgh couldn’t stop Tony Dorsett, who averaged 6 y/c on 16 attempts for 96 yards and another few dozen receiving. Many observers have commented that if Dallas had run Dorsett more they probably would have won. Landry was the greatest football genius of the modern era, but nobody’s perfect. On the other hand, the aforementioned screw job, along with the fluke of a botched Steelers kick off going to Randy White of all people, who was playing with a casted broken hand and fumbled the ball, put Dallas in a hole they probably felt they needed to pass to dig out of, and they came very close to pulling it off. And if a wide open Jackie Smith had caught that TD pass then Dallas more likely than not wins despite the officials’ antics, and Dallas is “the team of the 70s”, having equaled Pittsburgh in Super Bowl wins and owning the tie breakers of conference championships. As it is Dallas won more games in the 1970s than even the Steelers did.

Plus only blind morons would say something so stupid like “Dallas ALWAYS gets the calls!” as you just did. Super Bowl V also turned on controversial officiating that went against Dallas, and included the worst individual call in Super Bowl history. On 1st and goal from the 2 the Cowboys’ Duane Thomas fumbled on the Colts’ 1 yard line and footage clearly shows Dallas lineman Dave Manders recovering the football. At no point did a Colt possess the ball. But an official, whose view was obstructed, apparently was influenced by a bunch of Colts signaling their possession (wishful thinking), possibly panicked not knowing what to do in the heat of the moment, and signaled Colts’ ball. Manders, still holding the ball he had emerged with, looked incredulous. There was no instant replay back then so the horrendous call stood. It was the 3rd quarter and the Cowboys were winning 13-6. If they had retained possession and gone on to score from the 1 yard line, it would have been 20-6 and essentially over. That game is more famous for another controversial call favoring the Colts involving a Cowboy allegedly grazing a pass, making it legal for two Colts to touch it, because that’s the play NFL Films focused on, but that call, also probably blown, pales in comparison to the other one an embarrassed NFL would prefer to forget. Cliff Harris recovered a real Colts fumble in that game, btw.

Even in recent years studies have shown that Dallas doesn’t get the “home field bump” in calls that other teams do for whatever reason. If any team has consistently benefited from officiating over the decades it’s the Steelers. Ask the 2005 Seahawks, who won that game on the field but had it stolen from them. A ref involved even apologized to the Seahawks at their training camp a few years later, admitting that he had “kicked” some big calls in that Super Bowl. The Cardinals got shafted against the Steelers too, if not as blatantly.

Dallas rarely played the Steelers and the few results were fluky, but, as on these other issues, the overall facts are clear.

1971 – 1979

Cliff Harris Cowboys – 4 SB appearances, 6 conference championship game appearances, 8 playoff seasons, 2 SB wins, 107 total wins

Jack Tatum Raiders – 1 SB appearance, 5 conference championship game appearances, 6 playoff seasons, 1 SB win, 99 total wins

That’s despite playing in a much tougher division. You lose, little Joey Wrong.

7. I actually agree that Stabler belongs in Canton, you drooling moron. If your reading comprehension was less atrocious you might have realized that. Casper is more borderline but unobjectionable. However, Stabler does NOT belong in the HoF because he threw 2 TD passes against a rebuilding Dallas team having its worst season of the decade, any more than Danny White merits induction for beating the 1980 Raiders. I seriously doubt those passes “torched Harris” anyway. By your own admission you weren’t even watching the NFL in 1974 and I doubt you’ve ever seen the game in question. You’re just dishonestly blowing hot air as usual.

Neither Stabler nor Casper should have gotten in before Chuck Howley, Cliff Harris, and Drew Pearson. “Ghost to the Post”, lol? When NFL Films ranked the 75 greatest plays of all time Drew Pearson was critically involved in 3 of them! Chuck Howley was first team AP All Pro 5 years and the first defensive SB MVP to boot! Harris made 6 Pro Bowls, started for 2 SB winning teams, and is the only first team 70s All Decade member not already in Canton. Stabler got in now because he passed away recently and they wanted to eulogize him. Instead, they should prioritize getting those who are still alive in while they’re able to enjoy it, especially if they’re more deserving anyway as both Chuck Howley and Cliff Harris are.

I took issue with you not because you supported Stabler’s induction, but because, like a drowning man, in your nasty replies to Bachslunch raising valid points, you desperately resorted to flailing about, advancing invalid arguments and ignorantly splashing all over guys like Harris, Emmitt Smith, Bruce Smith, and others. You attacked the use of “numbers” before employing cherry-picked ones yourself, your positions have been obliterated by the logic of your own insipid arguments, and you’ve been exposed as a dishonest man whose word can’t be taken at face value on any topic. More often than not your claims either outright fail verification or omit facts that render them meaningless (e.g. boasting about Tatum’s SB winning percentage while leaving out, in Pravada- like fashion, that he only managed to get to one).

Your myopic stupidity has led you into entrenching yourself in a debate with someone who didn’t object to Stabler’s induction, and and in trying to APPEAR right just to appear so on tangential issues, even when that means arguing against the greatness of venerated first team All Decade players who are among the greatest of all time at their respective positions, which is increasingly counterproductive as your failures mount. Furthermore, you have an obnoxious personality that makes it a pleasant task to give you this educational knocking around.

• Joseph Wright
April 4, 2017

“I seriously doubt those passes “torched Harris” anyway. By your own admission you weren’t even watching the NFL in 1974 and I doubt you’ve ever seen the game in question. You’re just dishonestly blowing hot air as usual.” I wasn’t born in 1941, either, but I know Pearl Harbor got bombed. Though I wasn’t watching football regularly in ’74, I’m sure Harris deficiencies as a free safety were exploited. I’m positive Charlie Waters was toasted also. Three TDs (one from 1.000 year old George Blanda) is never a good job from a secondary. Tatum’s secondary gave up none that night. The 1980 game you bring up is irrelevant to our argument. Tatum and Harris were gone. The point is a team with Tatum anchoring its secondary is undefeated vs. a team with Harris anchoring the DBs. And in that game, Tatum’s crew gave up zero TD passes while Harris and his crew got scorched for three. As far as common opponents are concerned, Swann and Stallworth scored two touchdowns (one each) in six games vs. Jack Tatum’s secondary. The Steelers’ dynamic duo toasted Harris’ crew for SIX TDs in four games (two Super Bowls; regular seasons ’77 and ’79). More on your delusional excuses concerning the Super Bowl ass-whippings at the hands of the Steelers later, junior.

• Rasputin
April 4, 2017

I’ll give you or a day or so to finish your response, little Joey Wrong, but you’re off to a terrible start, just so you know.

• Joseph Wright
April 5, 2017

My questions that everyone out here is seeing you cowardly duck remain unanswered:

1) Why were the Tatum secondaries of the playoffs able to tighten up and shut down passers and receivers while the Cliff Harris secondaries of the Cowboys got torched in that same era?

2) If a receiver is going off for a 100-yd, multiple TD game–IN THE PLAYOFFS!–shouldn’t the FREE safety–who has no specific coverage responsibility (that’s why the position is called free, moron)–shouldn’t he be coming over and helping the cornerback? According to the playoff records of the ’70s regarding each secondary, Tatum was smart enough to come over and Harris was not.

3) Still haven’t got back to me with the records of the teams Larry Wilson “successfully” built. How many winning seasons did they produce? How many division titles did they win? How many Super Bowls did they claim?

4) According to you, in Super Bowl XIII “The Cowboys were better than the Steelers.” Really? In 1977, the Super Bowl-bound Cowboys (In the weak ’70s NFC–with Minnesota’s Tarkenton out with a season-ending injury–who was gonna beat them?) played the Steelers and, of course, lost 28-13 and, of course, Swann and Stallworth caught TD passes vs. the Harris-led secondary. Franco pounded Doomsday for 179 yards–including a 61-yd TD–on 29 carries (conversely that year, the Raiders wrapped up their third straight victory over the Steelers as Franco was held to 64 yards, Swann and Stallworth were shut down and kept out of the endzone, and..oh…yes, Tatum had an INT–Harris could cover? LOL!). Super Bowl XIII is well-documented. When they matched up the very next year in 1979, the Steelers beat ‘um and shut Dallas down, 14-3. Shouldn’t the Cowboys had been ticked off and primed for revenge? Quoting Bradshaw–again: “We kicked their (Cowboys) ass every time we played them.” LOL!!!

5) After I accurately stated the AFC was stronger than the NFC in the ’70s (Harris’ and Tatum’s era) , you immediately embraced the whole “Presumably you’re assuming the AFC was better than the NFC because it won more Super Bowls, but that’s mostly because of Pittsburgh. The Steelers and Colts were old NFL teams that were switched to the AFC after the merger to help balance things out.” NFL/NFC people often do that. The fact remains, the Steelers were an AFC team. But had they been an NFC team and the Cardinals (St. Louis at the time) had been moved to the NFC Central, Dallas would have had to face the Steelers as an NFC East foe twice a year. Uh-oh…Would Swann and Stallworth have run Cliff Harris out of the league? Hmm…We KNOW they didn’t run Tatum out of the league. The Cowboys were crazy LUCKY that the Steelers were NOT an NFC team!

6) I actually got some down time to read through your rubbish. You WERE actually stupid enough to mention Mike Boryla as a Pro Bowl QB. You’re making an absolute fool of yourself. And Roman Gabriel’s ’73 “Pro Bowl” season? You probably would drool over Vinny Testeverde’s 1996 “Pro Bowl” season with the Baltimore Ravens. In each case (although I must say, as a Los Angeles Ram, Gabriel was a FAR superior QB than Vinny ever was), they put up impressive–on paper–“numbers” (Bachlunch foolishly loves those–especially the regular season’s) in garbage time for teams that were already losing well into the fourth quarter. In the case of Vinny, that was the 4-12 Ravens. Dumb AFC players, no doubt influenced by Bachlunch, saw the conference leading 33 TDs and said, “I’m voting for Vinny, he threw 33 TDs this year.” Madness.

7) You raved about Tatum being run over by Larry Csonka, then drooled over Harris’ laying out Walter Payton. Forget the fact that there is about a forty-pound weight difference between a collision with Csonka and a collision with Payton but Payton’s was a pass play. Csonka’s was an up-the-gut run. Much easier to hammer a halfback on a pass than a fullback on a run up the middle. The is no footage of Harris clobbering Csonka in Super Bowl VI. Is there? There is footage of Tatum stunning Earl Cambell at the goalline (yes, I know Earl scored), documentation of Tatum knocking the wind out of tight end John Mackey (which compelled writers to compare Tatum to Dick Butkus; that never happened with Harris), and footage of Tatum’s knockout of tight end Riley Odoms (something Harris didn’t do in Super Bowl XII; Rick Upchurch–please). Speaking of that footage of Riley Odoms…

8) You mentioned that Emmitt was on an NFL Films top 10 list? Well, Jack Tatum was on NFL Films Top 10 Most Feared Tacklers. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/428079-jack-tatum-a-career-defined-by-a-single-unfortunate-incident. This is an alert, not a spoiler–Cliff Harris FAILED to make the list! LMFAO!!!

9) Look at this. Tatum is in great company. https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-defensive-backs-nfl-history. This is an alert, not a spoiler–Cliff Harris FAILED to make the list! LMFAO!!!

10) FOX Sports put this together: http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/50-greatest-moments-in-super-bowl-history-020616. Tatum checked in at #40. Harris checks in at #39, #29, #2. Hey, Harris contribution does get him higher rankings than Tatum. Harris was SOOOO impactual on #29 that they duplicated it on #2. Impressive.

There IS film for my points 8) and 10). Get back to me on those, junior.

• Rasputin
April 6, 2017

So like I figured, you’ve never even seen the 1974 game in question and have no idea who got torched. Got it. You’re solely going by team performance, which by your logic means that Tatum was routinely torched far more than Harris or anyone else on the much better Dallas secondary was that decade.

The 1980 game where Dallas beat the eventual Super Bowl champion Raiders is meaningful because it exposes how moronic your attempt to base everything on one game is. I doubt you’d admit that Dallas was better than the Raiders even in 1980, and yet you’re cherry-picking the 1974 game, when Dallas had its worst season of the decade and the Raiders had one of their best, and trying to use that to prove that the Raiders were better for the entire decade, LOL!

Clearly that’s not true, or Cliff Harris wouldn’t have won twice as many Super Bowls as Jack Tatum and four times as many conference championship games.

The Broncos and Dolphins delivered ass-whippings to the Raiders, LMFAO. So did the 1972 Steelers, TWICE, who in turn got their asses-whipped (by your and Bradshaw’s logic) by the Cowboys. That was an ACTUAL common opponent (same season).

The most telling common opponent was Craig Morton’s 1977 Broncos, who torched Tatum’s secondary thoroughly enough to give Morton a 102.9 passer rating! The Cliff Harris Doomsday defense held Morton to a 0.0 passer rating in the next game, the Super Bowl, and he played most of the game!

THAT’S a common opponent, same season in consecutive games when they mattered most. You lose, little Joey Wrong.

• Joseph Wright
April 6, 2017

I KNOW Harris was torched. I’ve seen the highlights, idiot. He’s trailing Charlie Smith on a 14-yd TD from Stabler. The funniest was the TD pass by 1,000-year-old George Blanda. Blanda zeroed in on Cliff Branch the WHOLE way. He didn’t even look off the Dallas free safety (that would be Harris, Rasputin. Will you please keep up?). Poor strong safety Cornell Green tried to come over to cover for Harris’ sorry, overrated ass (kind of like you’re always talking about Darren Woodson covering for Roy Williams, right?) but it was too late and Blanda and Branch had a 28-yd. TD.

My pulling up the ’74 Raiders-Cowboys matchups was to show how much better a free safety and secondary anchor Jack Tatum was than Cliff Harris (Tatum and his secondary got the better of that matchup). Not to mention the playoff and regular season matchups vs. Swann and Stallworth (Swann and Stallworth were generally nonfactors vs Tatum’s secondary and Tatum was 4-2 in those matchups with 4 INTs; Swann and Stallworth were record-breakers, made Hall of Fame statements and went an undefeated 4-0 vs. Harris’ secondaries. Harris was a nonfactor, although he did get body-slammed by Jack Lambert and looked great trailing Stallworth and Swann in Super Bowl XIII).

Prior to Tatum’s ’75 matchup vs. Charley Taylor, the Redskins’ receiver said, “The Raiders have a good secondary but they haven’t seen receivers like ours.” Taylor had an Art Monk-like game: 6 catches for 61 yards. Anyone who knows me knows that’s an indictment, not a complement. A whooping 10 yards a catch! Taylor did score a TD, an eight-yarder. Tatum had an INT for 28 yards. Most importantly, the Raiders won 26-23, as the Tatum-led secondary made that NFC East Pro Bowl QB you raved about, Billy Kilmer, complete less than half his 39 passes. Against Cliff Harris’ secondaries, Taylor has six TDs, overall, and that Monster NFC Title game in ’72 with 146 yard/2 TD receiving performance that included catches of 45 (TD) and 51 yards from Kilmer–hardly a bomb-thrower. Way to go, Captain Crash(ed and burned).
Additionally, for Harris, giving up three down-the-middle (where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be) TDs in a home playoff game (including the game-winner to Ron Smith…WHO?!?) from 32, 43, and 50 yards to first-time playoff starter Vince Ferragamo (1979) is unacceptable. Giving up a 100-yard receiving game to Harold Jackson (1976) catching passes from Pat Haden–IN DALLAS–is inexcusable. The ONLY point you can hang onto is Haven Moses’ performance in the ’77 AFC Title game, the only time anything like that happened to a Tatum-led secondary in 13 playoff games.

Find it interesting that the only victories vs. the Raiders and Steelers you could find were the meaningless ’80 win by Dallas–after Tatum was gone–and the ’72 win by the Cowboys–before Swann and Stallworth arrived. Any other “impressive” victories from the Landry era? How about that great 27-13 Cowboy “victory” over the Steelers in 1985? LMAO!!! While we’re in the Landry era but crossing sports, what about that great beatdown Trevor Berbick put on Muhammad Ali in 1981? And you accuse ME of “cherry-picking.” You’re a bumbling, hypocritical fool. For the record, Stabler and Tatum beat Harris and the Cowboys in ’74 and the score, 27-23, wasn’t even that close (garbage time TD by Doug Dennison). Dallas pitifully allowed Marc Wilson to abuse them for 318 yards and three TDs in a 40-38 win in 1983 and then in 1986, Jim Plunkett came off the bench to save the Raiders from Wilson’s QB ineptitude and beat the Cowboys, 17-13. Both these wins were in Dallas. The Raiders were 3-1 vs. Landry’s Cowboys and won two Super Bowls in the ’80s and the Cowboy won nothing for the decade. So, no, Dallas was not a better team in 1980 than the Raiders despite that fluky win. The Raiders also lost to Philadelphia that same year then kicked their ass in Super Bowl XV–but only AFTER the Eagles kicked Dallas ass in the NFC Title game. The Raiders would have regrouped, just as they did with Philly and whupped Dallas in SB XV. And, BTW, if Bum Phillips had taken Art Whittington for Kenny King instead of insisting on Jack Tatum, the Assassin would have easily collected another Super Bowl ring with the Raiders. Back to where you belong, junior.

• Rasputin
April 6, 2017

So your football “knowledge” is such that you assume just because a DB is in the shot chasing a WR he must have been the one responsible for covering him. Got it.

Craig Morton torched the Tatum secondary in the 1977 AFC Championship with a 102.9 rating and 2 TD passes. On the highlights there’s a great shot of Jack Tatum trailing helplessly on the 74 yard TD to Haven Moses. It must have been embarrassing for Tatum to get torched by a 74 yard TD pass on the big stage like that.

He probably should have been more embarrassed by his less than 100% effort in the run game against the Dolphins in the 1973 AFC Championship (the Raiders lost a lot of conference championship games, going 1-4 in the Tatum era). In fairness he did try to tackle Larry Csonka early on a couple of times, only to get trucked for an additional several yards. This was probably on his mind when he reached out with ONE hand and declined to try to tackle the Dolphins’ RB as he rushed by him into the end zone.

Miami put up 266 rushing yards on the soft Raiders defense that day, with Csonka contributing 117 yards and 3 TDs. Griese only attempted 6 passes, because they didn’t NEED to pass, which often happened with the Raiders in the playoffs. Tatum’s Oakland Raiders couldn’t even stop a one dimensional team. Miami blew out Oakland 27-10, the same score Dallas would crush the 1977 Broncos by, though not as big as the margin by which Dallas blew out Miami.

In Super Bowl VI the Cowboys held the Dolphins to 80 rushing yards and Csonka to 40. Griese was forced to attempt 23 passes, though it didn’t do him any good as he ended up with a 51.7 rating and a 24-3 loss. The Cliff Harris Cowboys are still the only team in SB history to hold their opponent out of the end zone.

The 1974 game was meaningless because that game occurred at Oakland when Dallas had its worst season by far of the decade, and it was still razor close, moron. It’s pathetic that you’re touting that ONE game. You should be embarrassed by it, and the 1980 meeting where the Raiders lost at home in their Super Bowl season to Dallas by a bigger margin.

The 1974 game that WAS meaningful was the AFC Championship game against the Steelers. Bradshaw only attempted 17 passes, again, because they didn’t NEED to pass. The Steelers rolled up 224 rushing yards against Oakland on 50(!) runs. Whereas Cliff Harris was a noted run stopper as well as a coverage guy, Tatum proved inadequate to the task.

In the 1975 title game against the Steelers, the Raiders did somewhat better against the run (still not great), holding them to 117 yards on 39 carries. This forced Pittsburgh to pass more, and Bradshaw ripped Oakland for 215 yards on 25 attempts to secure the victory. When teams tried to pass against Oakland they generally could, as proved by the Raiders BELOW AVERAGE pass defense stats and rankings during Tatum’s tenure.

For you to try boast about the Raiders not allowing many yards in a few playoff games, because teams weren’t passing that much since they could run easily against Tatum’s soft squad and didn’t need to pass to win, is just…..sad. Especially when you ignore the fact that the Raiders overall that decade were routinely torched by the passing game.

And team passing yards allowed are more pertinent here than individual WR stats. If it’s just one WR having a good day then he’s probably exploiting a CB. But if the whole team is having success spreading the ball around (as Raiders opponents did throughout Tatum’s tenure), there’s probably weak safety play involved.

You said: “So, no, Dallas was not a better team in 1980 than the Raiders despite that fluky win.”

LOL! That “fluky” win was by a bigger margin than the meaningless 1974 season finale you keep clinging to, and both games were at Oakland, but thank you for destroying your own insipid argument. One head to head game doesn’t necessarily prove much, especially in this argument.

I actually agree that the 1980 Raiders were better than the 1980 Cowboys, despite the Dallas win, and I’ll even go so far as to say that the 1974 Cowboys (8-6; their worst season of the decade by far) weren’t as good as the 1974 Raiders (12-2), but the Cowboys WERE better for most of the 1970s, and Cliff Harris was better than Jack Tatum. Just as you speculate about what might have happened in a rematch in 1980, I’m on even firmer ground by stating that the Cowboys would have beaten (probably crushed) the Raiders if they had played them in 1971, 1977, 1975, 1972, 1978, 1979, or probably even 1973, though that last one would have been more of a toss up. 1974 was by far your BEST CHANCE to steal a win against the Cliff Harris era Cowboys, and you barely escaped with a 4 point margin at home. You would have gotten stomped if you’d met Dallas during THEIR playoff seasons. There’s a reason the Cowboys won so many more games that decade than the Raiders did, despite playing in a much tougher division.

I’m not sure why you’re babbling about games in 1986 now, lol. In 1992 the Cowboys whipped the Raiders at LA 28-13 in a game mostly memorable for how many local Cowboys fans filled the stadium. So there. That game is more equivalent to the 1974 matchup, with one team playoff bound and the other not, except it was also at the Raiders’ home.

Keep repeating your already refuted points though, little Joey Wrong. This is easy light bag work.

• Joseph Wright
April 7, 2017

If you agree with me that the 1980 Raiders were better than the ’80 Cowboys then why on a previous post you said “I doubt that you’d admit that the Cowboys were a better team than the Raiders even in 1980.” ? Be consistent–and coherent. As for these so-called “Pro Bowl” QBs that the Harris-led secondary had to face:
–Kilmer made it in ’72 on the “strength” of a pedestrian yet NFL-leading 19 TD passes
–All Jurgenson’s Pro Bowls were in the ’60s
–Theismann’s Pro Bowl run started in the ’80s. One of many unsurprising mistakes on behalf of our own Mr. Razzie
–Roman Gabriel’s ’73 “Pro Bowl” season was aided by garbage time TD passes after games were decided. Very comparable to Vinny Testaverde’s 1996 “Pro Bowl” season. Gabriel’s best years were in the ’60s. Were the ’73 Eagles a playoff team? What was their record?
–Norm Snead’s one Pro Bowl in the ’70s was on the strength, I suppose, of an NFL-leading 60.3 completion percentage. But the Giants didn’t make the playoffs and he wasn’t a great player.
Mike Boryla, a back-up QB with a losing record and a 6-12 season TD/INT ratio who is called on by the league because it DESPERATELY needs ANY QB to fill the NFC roster, isn’t even worth discussing.
Fran Tarkenton and Jim Hart were the only legit Pro Bowl QBs Harris had to face playing against NFC competition. The QBs Tatum faced in the AFC were tougher: Bradshaw, Anderson, Bert Jones, Brian Sipe, and even Bob Griese’s sorry, game-managing ass. Here is the telling fact, though: In eight games vs. the NFC’s Pro Bowl QBs, Tatum-led secondaries forced Tarkenton, Staubach, Hart, Gabriel, and Kilmer to complete less than half their passes seven times and gave up 9 TD passes (Tarkenton 6 TDs; Hart, Gabriel, Kilmer one each; Staubach threw a big, fat donut in 1974, despite the presence of Drew Pearson, Billy Joe DuPree, and Golden Richards–only the receiving corps for the next THREE years. Rebuilding? Really? Underachieving is the appropriate word), intercepted 11 passes (Tatum chipped in two) and, most importantly, Tatum and the Raiders were 7-1 in these games. So much for Tatum being lucky to not have to face the “superior NFC QB competition” of the ’70s. So Tatum and the Raiders were undefeated vs. the Cowboys in the ’70s. Quit saying they “barely” beat them. It was garbage time when Doug Dennison scored a touchdown to make the score look closer. You KNOW it must have been garbage time if 1,000-year-old George Blanda was in the game, dummy–and he STILL scorched Harris with a touchdown pass! You’re not getting into the Hall of Fame with that type of liability in your game that can be exploited by a back-up QB that old. And please can the anti-Cowboy crap and how, “We won the most games in the ’70s (regular season, yawn) and if we had beaten Pittsburgh, just once, you’d see more Cowboys in the Hall (of Fame).
Now, let’s hear some words from the late Pittsburgh DE Dwight White: “I don’t think the Cowboys suffered badly because of their Super Bowl losses to the Steelers in the ’70s. I don’t think they suffered enough. They had a lot of egos, a lot of bravado. Good football team but when it comes down to it, it’s about beating the best to be the best. So, OK, we played them twice in the Super Bowl, we beat them both times, we were the best, end of discussion.”
I just kicked your ass again, junior. This isn’t cherry-pickin’, son. You brought up the “Pro Bowl QB” crap of the NFC. Now go lick your wounds–then please wash your mouth out because we know where those wounds were administered.

• Rasputin
April 7, 2017

Your lousy reading comprehension strikes again, halfwit. Me saying I’d doubt you’d say the 1980 Cowboys were better than the 1980 Raiders (which I was absolutely right on) doesn’t mean I think they’re better. I’ve never said the 1980 Cowboys were better. The whole premise of my point is that they weren’t, despite beating the Raiders head to head that year.

The real question is, now that you’ve conceded one head to head regular season matchup isn’t necessarily that meaningful in comparing teams even within a single year, why you’ve wasted countless paragraphs boring everyone with a narrower, even less meaningful game in 1974.

Want me to give you the answer, lol? It has to do with deficiencies in your intellect, integrity, and personality.

Now let’s deal with your raging stupidity on NFC Pro Bowlers:

– “Here is the telling fact, though: In eight games vs. the NFC’s Pro Bowl QBs…..Tatum and the Raiders were 7-1 in these games.”

WRONG! I went through and only found TWO regular season Raider games against NFC Pro Bowl QBs, and the Raiders LOST one of those. Oakland beat Archie Manning’s Saints in 1979, though Manning put up a respectable 84.3 rating on 2 TDs and 1 INT, and in 1977 Pat Haden posted a 101.2 rating in beating the Raiders while Stabler was intercepted 4 times for a 27.6 rating (who was the best QB in 1977 again, LMFAO?!?).

So the Raiders went 1-1 in the regular season against NFC Pro Bowl QBs, and obviously only made it far enough to play one in the playoffs. The Cowboys had to play at least 6 AFC Pro Bowl QBs in the regular season alone. The most pertinent one might be the Chargers’ John Hadl in 1972, since they were in Oakland’s division. Dallas beat them by 6 at San Diego, intercepting Hadl 3 times in holding him to a 71.2 rating. The Chargers played Oakland twice, tying them in the first game while the Raiders slipped by them by 2 points in the second. This was the same season the Cowboys beat the Bradshaw Steelers (kicked their “asses” by Terry’s logic) who kicked the Raiders’ asses twice.

Either you straight up lied and were stupid enough to count on me not verifying your BS sounding claim, or you’re stupidly counting QBs in years they didn’t have Pro Bowl seasons, which is something you’ve attacked in falsely accusing me of doing it before. Either way you’re an idiot. The Raiders were catching these teams when they and their QBs were at their low points; more lucky scheduling breaks for Oakland.

– “Kilmer made it in ’72 on the “strength” of a pedestrian yet NFL-leading 19 TD passes”

So it LED THE LEAGUE but it was “pedestrian”, LMFAO? Guess the rest of the NFL, including the AFC West garbage your team faced, was even more pedestrian.

– “All Jurgenson’s Pro Bowls were in the ’60s”

No, the 8-3 score only counts Pro Bowls earned from 1971-1979. I wasn’t counting Jurgenson there.

– “Theismann’s Pro Bowl run started in the ’80s. One of many unsurprising mistakes on behalf of our own Mr. Razzie”

Wrong again, little Joey. I didn’t count Theismann’s Pro Bowls either. I did mention him in a different section, but that was to counter you bringing up AFC guys like Brian Sipe (LOL!) who also didn’t make the Pro Bowl (his one and only) until the 1980s.

– “Roman Gabriel’s ’73 “Pro Bowl” season was aided by garbage time TD passes after games were decided.”

You mean the season where he LED THE LEAGUE IN YARDS AND TDs? You have a penchant for doubling down on your own humiliation, little Joey. You’ve got to learn when to cut your losses and move on.

“Were the ’73 Eagles a playoff team? What was their record?”

They might have been if they had played in the AFC West. They only won 3 of their 8 NFC East games, a division which produced 2 playoff teams and had 2 double digit win teams. The AFC West produced 0 double digit win teams and only their token single playoff team.

But so what? The discussion is about QB quality the respective pass defenses have to face, and Gabriel put up a lot of stats. You keep losing the plot.

– “Norm Snead’s one Pro Bowl in the ’70s was on the strength, I suppose, of an NFL-leading 60.3 completion percentage.”

LOL! You mean even ahead of everyone in the AFC West?

– “Fran Tarkenton and Jim Hart were the only legit Pro Bowl QBs Harris had to face playing against NFC competition.”

Wrong, especially if the others have (sometimes league leading) stats (which you concede) and this is a STAT- based discussion. Remember, a supposed abundance of AFC Pro Bowl competition was your pathetic excuse for the Raiders pass defense performing so much worse than the Cowboys’ pass defense. You tossed out that excuse blindly, your typical schtick being to ignorantly throw a bunch of crap against the wall in the desperate hope that something sticks.

But, as usual, the truth turned out to be the opposite of your claim.

Divisional Opposing Pro Bowl QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8

Raiders – 3

Most than twice as many! And they faced these teams twice a year. I couldn’t care less about “Pittsburgh’s Dwight White’s” (what an unfortunate name, poor guy) self-serving bluster. You didn’t even tie his idiotic quote into anything specific in this discussion. Let’s get back to facts.

1971 – 1979

Cliff Harris Cowboys – 4 SB appearances, 6 conference championship game appearances, 8 playoff seasons, 2 SB wins, 107 total wins

Jack Tatum Raiders – 1 SB appearance, 5 conference championship game appearances, 6 playoff seasons, 1 SB win, 99 total wins

And that’s despite Oakland playing in a much weaker division that included opponents like the 0-14 1976 Bucs (in the argument for worst team of all time) and expansion Seahawks, LOL!

I’ve kicked your ass all over this thread, Joseph Wright. I doubt you’ve ever won a fight or a debate in your life.

• Joseph Wright
April 10, 2017

If you weren’t counting Jurgenson or Theismann then why did you bring them up, fool? Of all the games against NFC Pro Bowl Quarterbacks of Cliff Harris’ era Tatum, because of your inclusion of Manning and (I can’t believe you’re serious, then again the fetish with Mike Boryla) Pat Haden, was 9-2. I correct you on both of these guys that you–in a clumsy deceptive way, translation: liar–tried to fool readers with (“the Pro Bowl QBs in the NFC East were…Sonny Jurgenson…Joe Theismann…”). You dropped their names in there as “Pro Bowlers” Cliff Harris had to face. The ONLY reason Haden made the Pro Bowl was because Tarkenton suffered a season-ending broken leg and Staubach bowed out because he had played in Super Bowl XII. Shades of Mike Boryla. Would you like us to get you two guys a room? And the Archie Manning mention is very hypocritical because in the 1979 season finale, Harris was being trounced by Theismann, (I guess, according to you NOW) a NON-Pro Bowler before Staubach saved Cliff’s sorry ass with a 35-34 squeaker.

As for this constant reference to the Raiders’ Divisional opponents, Tampa Bay, while listed in the AFC West in ’76, only played the Raiders once. Are you gonna roast the Steelers for routing the Bucs in their ’76 matchup, too? The Raiders played the Seahawks zero times in ’76 and once in ’77, when the Seahawks officially became an AFC West team. The Cowboys in ’76 and ’77, on the other hand, got to pad their win total with the Eagles and Giants, pounding the likes of Jerry Golsteyn, Joe Pisarchik, the aging Roman Gabriel and your boy, Boryla. That’s four easy wins a year.

You also said, “Craig Morton torched the Tatum secondary in the 1977 AFC Championship with a 102.9 rating and 2 TD passes. On the highlights there’s a great shot of Jack Tatum trailing helplessly on the 74 yard TD to Haven Moses. It must have been embarrassing for Tatum to get torched by a 74 yard TD pass on the big stage like that.” Great way to set yourself up to be exposed, dummy. Let’s not even discuss Cliff Harris’ sorry ass getting exposed on the big stage…Ah, what the hell:
1) Jan. ’71: Colts’ tight end John Mackey takes in Super Bowl-record 75-yd TD pass. The play was down the middle (where was Harris?) Cowboys lose.
2) NFC Title Game ’72: Redskins’ wide receiver Charley Taylor toasts the Harris-anchored secondary for 7 catches, 146 yards and 2 TDs, including catches of 45 (TD) yards and 51 yards. Cowboys lose.
3) Jan. ’76: After being foolishly called out by Harris (Cliff, not Franco) the week of the game, Steelers’ wide receiver Lynn Swann makes four catches for a Super Bowl record-161 yards including a game-winning 64-yard TD bomb. Cowboys lose.
4) Dec. 76: Rams’ wide receiver Harold Jackson catches six passes for 116 yards in first-round playoff game–from weak-armed, short, rookie first-time playoff starter Pat Haden! Cowboys lose–in Dallas!
5A) Jan. ’79: Steelers’ wideouts John Stallworth (115–in 1st HALF) AND Lynn Swann (124) each gain 100+ yards receiving and combine for three TD catches in Super Bowl XIII vs. “The Best Free Safety of the ’70s”. Harris burnt to a crisp on each–the film don’t lie: He’s late coming over to help Aaron Kyle on Stallworth’s 28-yd TD (then cheap-shots Stallworth in follow-through. Of course there was no flag–Dallas always got the calls…and no-calls); Stallworth takes a short hitch and turns it into a Super Bowl-record-tying 75-yd. TD, with Harris clearly seen helplessly trailing the last 40 yards; Swann soars to the back of the endzone behind Harris’ “coverage” to make a great leaping catch, with Harris looking up flailing (failing?) an arm to make a deflection. Cowboys lose.
5B) Jan. ’79: Same game. Steelers QB, Terry Bradshaw (or as Harris and fellow burnt-crisp DB teammate Charlie Waters called him, “Dumbass Bradshaw”) becomes the first QB to pass for 300+ yards in a Super Bowl and the first to pass for 4 TDs in a Super Bowl. That’s five–FIVE–Super Bowl passing/receiving records brought to you by secondaries anchored by Cliff Harris, “The Best Free Safety of the ’70s.” Cowboys lose.
6) Dec. 79: The Swan (Swann…LOL!!!) Song of Harris overrated, sorry, burnt playoff (and overall) career. First-time playoff starter, Rams QB Vince Ferragamo, throws three TDs of 32, 43, and 50 yards down the middle–where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be–vs. Dallas. The 43-yarder to Ron Smith (who?) and the game-winning 50-yarder to Billy Waddy (WHO?!?!?!?!?). Cowboys lose.

Once again, in 13 playoff contests, in only one game was there a receiver who scorched a Tatum-anchored secondary (Haven Moses, ’77 AFC Title). No QB scorched them for 300+ yards or more than 2 TD passes. Has nothing to do with the Raiders ordinary defensive line that had problems against the run that kept the opposition’s passing numbers down. The Tatum-led secondaries simply raised their game at playoff time and clamped down and the Harris secondaries didn’t. Give Tatum the likes of Howie Long, Greg Townsend, Lyle Alzado, and Sean Jones and he would have been working with a better balanced defense–something Harris always had (Bob Lilly, Harvey Martin, Randy White, Too Tall Jones) and yet still got flamed with in numerous playoff games.

As for the regular season, once again in the head-to-head matchup Tatum’s secondary gave up ZERO TDs to Staubach and his receivers (D. Pearson, Golden Richards, and Billy Joe DuPree), who would all be Super Bowl starters the next year, while forcing him to complete less than half his passes. The Cowboys weren’t rebuilding, just underachieving. The Harris-anchored secondary, meanwhille, was torched for three TDs. Harris was trailing (definitely a theme in his career) Charlie Smith on a score from Stabler then just badly blew another help assignment (a FS’ resposibility) on a 28-yd. TD pass to Branch from 1,000 year old George Blanda. The score was only a four-point spread because of a meaningless Doug Dennison touchdown in garbage time. Of course it was garbage time. Blanda was playing QB.

And who in Los Angeles (or Dallas for that matter) could ever forget that atrocious cremation of Harris and the ‘Boys at the hands of Harold Jackson in 1973. He caught seven passes for 4 TDs (63, 16, 30, 67)–for 238 YARDS! In 1973! Receivers weren’t posting too many 100-yard games in 1973 but a 200+-yarder? Absolutely pathetic. The Raiders of the mid-’70s crushed by the ’70s Cowboys? Lose to the ’70s Cowboys? Seriously doubt it. If they’re giving up a 200+ receiving game to Harold Jackson, how in the hell are they gonna deal with Cliff Branch? And Harris won’t be able to duck and hide from Dave Casper, who would do to him the same or worse than what Csonka did to Tatum. then again, Harris wasn’t able to duck and hide from Jack Lambert, right? LMAO!!! The 1973 Rams game passes came from John Hadl, who NEVER did that to a Tatum secondary.

So, are you telling me that Jim Hart, Tarkenton, Staubach (who Tatum was 5-1 against with each completing less than half their passes in all but one of those games) weren’t Pro Bowl caliber QBs? What about your add-ons, Gabriel and Kilmer? Tatum was 3-0 vs. them with 2 INTs and with him anchoring the secondary neither Kilmer nor Gabriel completed half their passes.

The bigger question is this: Who’s hand a AP did Cliff Harris shake? How many babies did he kiss? How often did he lick Zimmerman’s boots? “Best Free Satety of the ’70s?” Far from it. He benefited from a great defensive line who covered his ass–A LOT. The fact of the matter is, although you had fun with Csonka running over Tatum there is no footage of Harris stepping up to Csonka in Super Bowl XI. Tatum knocked out Pro Bowl TE Riley Odoms, was documented for knocking the wind out of Hall of Fame TE John Mackey, and went head up with Earl Campbell. Though Campbell scored, he was clearly dazed. Harris never rocked someone who outweighed him by 30+ pounds.

And, finally, could you explain why Cliff Harris’ name is absent from these? :
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/428079-jack-tatum-a-career-defined-by-a-single-unfortunate-incident

https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-defensive-backs-nfl-history

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/50-greatest-moments-in-super-bowl-history-020616

• Rasputin
April 12, 2017

You said: “…tried to fool readers with (“the Pro Bowl QBs in the NFC East were…Sonny Jurgenson…Joe Theismann…”). You dropped their names in there as “Pro Bowlers” Cliff Harris had to face.”

Wrong again, little Joey. Not only did you make up that BS quote you attributed to me, but in the very same post where I mentioned Jurgenson and later (in a different paragraph) provided you with the 8-3 Pro Bowl opponent count, after giving that 8-3 count I explicitly said this:

(Me in the above post you misquoted from) – “8 to 3, and these are the guys they each played TWICE A YEAR! I’m also only counting Pro Bowls earned at the particular team during the span in question. Once again, as has so often proved the case, the truth is the opposite of your claim.”

The middle sentence is clear. I added it lest there be any confusion about my methodology. My last sentence still holds true too, but even I underestimated the depths of your stupidity and dishonesty (anyone can copy paste and use the F3 page search function to see I’m right and you’re wrong). I didn’t need to mention those other guys, but cited them as overkill in that different paragraph to underscore just how wrong you were. I was talking about their overall careers there, and also labelled some of them “HoF” (you don’t do that in just a particular season). Dallas faced good QBs that weren’t having Pro Bowl seasons that particular year (you listed guys like that for the Raiders), as well as ones while they were having Pro Bowl seasons. Are you challenging the numbers? I could list them all if you’re too lazy to look them up yourself. I went out of my way to not count guys like Jurgenson or Theismann in that count (told you then I wasn’t counting them), and the Cowboys still had an 8-3 advantage. And the Raiders only played 2 Pro Bowl NFC QBs in Tatum’s career, going 1-1 in those games.

So basically you just reconfirmed here that your’e a lying POS and nothing you say on any topic can be trusted. Most of your post is just repetitive garbage I’ve already debunked with hard evidence (I even spoonfed you a BALTIMORE SUN article agreeing that the Cowboys got robbed in Super Bowl V; they’ve been screwed over the most by officiating over the years), especially the cherry-picked anecdotal crap you keep relying on that you dishonestly present.

Yawn. You’ve gotten boring there. I’ve posted anecdotal stuff about Tatum getting torched huge or tackling tough RBs in half-hearted fashion, as well as Cliff Harris dominating or knocking players out, and I’m the only one here who’s actually linked to game footage, proving you were lying in one particular case about Super Bowl XII.

You’re ignoring almost all my arguments and points, so I’ll just keep kicking your ass with the factual, full story sledgehammer in response to your game/player cherry-picking, but I will respond to the few new things in your post.

You said: “The fact of the matter is, although you had fun with Csonka running over Tatum there is no footage of Harris stepping up to Csonka in Super Bowl XI”

Probably because neither guy was in Super Bowl XI, moron. Assuming you meant Super Bowl VI, it’s been a while since I’ve watched it but the fact is Csonka and the Dolphins were completely shut down. He was held to 40 yards and the Dolphins were held to 3 points. Cliff Harris was part of the only team in Super Bowl history to hold its opponent out of the end zone, and they did it playing a legitimately great team full of HoFers that would go undefeated the next year and physically dismantle the Tatum Raiders in a rout the year after that. I’d have to rewatch Super Bowl VI to see if there are any shots of Harris “stepping up” to Csonka, but since you’re a proven liar whose claims are almost always provably wrong, I don’t put any stock in what you say. Wouldn’t surprise me if it happens to be true (by coincidence, not because you actually know), since there was little NEED for the safeties to spend the day tackling Csonka. Fortunately the Doomsday secondary was also able to hold Griese to 134 yards and a 51.7 rating on his 23 attempts (Miami only rushed 20 times, an astonishing reversal of their usual run heavy approach).

You said: “The ONLY reason Haden made the Pro Bowl was because…”

You mean the guy who beat the Raiders in 1977? Why are you trying to diminish him again? Shouldn’t you be building him up, moron? that was one of Oakland’s best seasons that decade too; it’s not like the rebuilding 1974 Cowboys who suffered their worst season and only non-playoff year of the 1970s, lol.

You said: “Theismann, (I guess, according to you NOW) a NON-Pro Bowler”

Pro Bowler or not, Theismann ranked second in passer rating in 1979, next only to Staubach, lol. Plus Theismann was a 2 time Pro Bowler in the 1980s (Brian Sipe, the AFC guy you boasted about playing, made his one and only Pro Bowl in the 1980s). I never claimed he made his Pro Bowls in the 1970s and explicitly said I wasn’t counting people like him in the factual count. You just suck at reading and thinking.

You said: “And the Archie Manning mention is very hypocritical because in the 1979 season finale, Harris was being trounced by Theismann, (I guess, according to you NOW) a NON-Pro Bowler before Staubach saved Cliff’s sorry ass with a 35-34 squeaker.”

No, actually the Dallas secondary was missing their recent Pro Browl S Charlie Waters for the season and his backup Randy Hughes was out for that week, so they had a 3rd stringer playing S. Plus rookie CB Aaron Mitchell got a lot of action, and it was mostly the CBs getting taken advantage of with quick passing. The announcers even talked about that being the Washington game plan. That said, they didn’t play a terrible game. Theismann had a solid game but only completed 13 of 23 for 200 yards (Staubach had 336 yards and 3 TDs).

Theismann’s only TD pass was to a RB when the LB covering him (not Cliff Harris) slipped and fell. The Redskins had more rushing than passing yards. That game was more about Dallas committing 3 turnovers while missing key players on both sides of the ball.

I’ve actually got the recording of this game and have watched it more than once, unlike you, who haven’t seen the games you’re bringing up and are spewing BS about. I remember Cliff Harris had a lot of good tackles, including some on John Riggins, who was a truckload. Even when he missed a tackle on a Riggins TD, one where he had distance to cover and had to approach from a bad angle, it wasn’t due to lack of effort. Harris put his body into him and was a little slow with the wrap up, ending up on the ground. The announcers talked about how rare it was for him to miss a tackle, the way they would later about Jerry Rice dropping a pass. Tom Brookshier, a national media figure, also called him “Captain Crash”, debunking yet another of countless false claims by you. In various games I’ve seen guys like Pat Summerall say things like they figured it was Cliff Harris who made a particular hard tackle, judging from the way the hit was delivered, though they hadn’t yet seen the replay to be sure.

Harris only weighed 180 -190 pounds, but he gave 100% effort on every play. I’ve never seen him dog it or make a token non-attempt to tackle with one hand(!) like Tatum did against Csonka. Not only was Cliff Harris better than Tatum, he was tougher. I’d rather have my teammate be the guy with intangibles who’s giving it his all all the time than someone who dogs it when the going gets rough and has the sort of integrity that leads him to cash in on paralyzing someone by writing self promoting books about it rather than trying to help or even initiate token attempts to make amends to the injured man.

Harris came immediately back from that missed tackle firing into Redskins like a missile. On another play he tackled Riggins hard enough to drive him several yards out of bounds (Riggins outweighed him by more than 30 pounds, disproving another one of your asinine comments I didn’t bother quoting). I also remember him cutting down the athletic Theismann in space in the backfield to force a punt at a key time in the second half.

So at least Dallas won the game, and Harris was a significant part of beating Theismann.

You said: “Tampa Bay, while listed in the AFC West in ’76, only played the Raiders once.”

That’s one more time than Dallas got to play arguably the worst team in NFL history. The 76 Bucs got shut out 5 times that year, though not by the Raiders, who surrendered 16 points to Tampa Bay.

The Raiders played the expansion Bucs and Seahawks in the division 6 times from 76-79. That’s as many games as Oakland played against divisional Pro Bowl QBs in Tatum’s entire career in the regular season, and three times as many as they played against Pro Bowl NFC QBs. And you’re claiming it’s a negligible amount, Mr. Pravda 1974, LOL! Earlier I called you “Baghdad Bob”. Perhaps I should apologize……to Baghdad Bob. Even ol’ Bob would be embarrassed to be associated with you at this point.

You said: “The Cowboys in ’76 and ’77, on the other hand, got to pad their win total with the Eagles and Giants, pounding the likes of Jerry Golsteyn, Joe Pisarchik, the aging Roman Gabriel and your boy, Boryla. That’s four easy wins a year.”

You keep cherry-picking Jerry Golsteyn and Joe Pisarcik. Neither were even in the NFL in “76”, you lying halfwit. 1977 was their rookie year, and Golsteyn threw a grand total of 16 passes against the Cowboys his entire career.

In 1976 the Giants QB was Craig Morton, and while the Cowboys did beat him both times, he’d go on to torch the Raiders in 1977 before being shut down to a 0.0 passer rating against the Cowboys in the Super Bowl. You’d be saying the same crap about him as these other guys if Morton hadn’t gone on to play in a much easier division and beat your team.

By 1979 the Giants QB was Phil Simms, and the Cowboys beat him twice too. For the record Cliff Harris intercepted Simms both games, and intercepted Morton in 1976 too.

Ron Jaworski was the Eagles’ QB by 1977 (Dallas beat him twice too), so you were lying about that as well. So much for “four easy wins a year” from the guys you named. The truth is Dallas was so good their win counts and stats were among the NFL’s best regardless of whom they were playing.

In addition to the expansion opponents, I could list Raiders’ playing against QBs like Steve Ramsey, or the “aging” Charley Johnson and Mike Livingston, who made a Pro Bowl each in the 1960s. But Livingston never threw as many TDs as interceptions in any season where he started a majority of games. Or Steve Fuller, who as a rookie completed 73.3% of his passes for a 97.1% rating in beating Oakland one game in 1979, his best performance of a year in which overall he threw 14 interceptions to only 6 TDs. The 7-9 Chiefs SWEPT Oakland that year. How embarrassing for you.

Some of these guys were major Raiders opponents for chunks of the 1970s. But while it’s fun crushing you on the anecdotal stuff, let’s skip back to the full picture and obliterate you with the sledgehammer.

Divisional Opposing Pro Bowl QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8

Raiders – 3

Combined 1971-1979

NFC East (excluding Cowboys) – 9 playoff seasons, 14 winning seasons

AFC West (excluding Raiders) – 5 playoff seasons, 12 winning seasons

You lose, cowardly dodger. Oh I don’t doubt the Raiders would have won a lot…maybe even most of their games if they had actually played more than 2 of these NFC opponents when they were having Pro Bowl seasons. So what? The Cowboys did routinely beat these guys. Both Dallas and Oakland won most of their games in the decade, whether against NFC or AFC opponents. But the reason we’re discussing this is because you falsely claimed better Oakland opponents as a reason for the huge Cowboys advantage in the passing defense stat. Your excuse is clearly BS due to the fact that the Raiders were well below average, let alone the very highly ranked Cowboys, but that the Cowboys accomplished what they did while facing much TOUGHER opposition really drives home how wrong you were.

You said: “Once again, in 13 playoff contests, in only one game was there a receiver who scorched a Tatum-anchored secondary (Haven Moses, ’77 AFC Title).”

You’re still focusing on individual WRs over team performance even after I made fun of you for it. You realize that free safeties aren’t typically in man to man coverage against the opponents’ star WR don’t you? He usually not personally getting torched when they score a TD, especially if it’s really just one WR putting up big numbers.

And you’re wanting to focus only on playoffs while ignoring the regular season, lol? In the playoffs when a good team like the Steelers or Dolphins have as easy a time running against the Raiders defense as they did, to the point where Bob Griese only attempted 6 passes(!) in trouncing Oakland 27-10, of course you’re not going to “allow” many passing yards because they aren’t ATTEMPTING many.

Of course safeties have to help in the run game too. Ouch. Tatum’s Raiders just didn’t get it done. To the extent we do get anecdotal. The 1977 Broncos are the most important opponent to focus on because they’re the most common opponent, faced in consecutive games, and in the most important games. But let’s return to the bigger picture.

Cliff Harris made it to 6 conference championships while Tatum only made it to 5. How’d they do?

Conference Championship Records As Full Time Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-5

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

So much for the playoffs. Let’s revisit the macro stats to see who REALLY got torched.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

The Tatum secondary got torched even more than the average NFL team did, despite playing in a very weak division. The Raiders pass defense didn’t do as well when teams actually bothered to throw the ball. By your logic that was Jack Tatum personally being torched all those times too. That’s closer to the truth in this case since the strength in the Oakland secondary was its CBs rather than its safeties, while the strength of the Cowboys’ secondary in the second half of the decade was its safeties.

You said: “Give Tatum the likes of Howie Long, Greg Townsend, Lyle Alzado, and Sean Jones and he would have been working with a better balanced defense–something Harris always had (Bob Lilly, Harvey Martin, Randy White, Too Tall Jones) and yet still got flamed with in numerous playoff games.”

“Numerous”, lol? Hardly. the Cowboys got torched way less than the atrocious Raiders pass defense did. Being stronger up front than the soft Raiders also meant good opponents (like the ones in playoff games) were often forced to pass more (e.g. the Dolphins common opponent example, 23 attempts versus 6).

Tell me who was on the Dallas line in 1980? While Jeopardy music plays in the background I’ll post these facts:

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

Give up? The answer is Randy White, Harvey Martin, Too Tall Jones, and Larry Cole. Jones missed 1979 to box (pass defense still ranked #3) and would make all 3 of his Pro Bowls in the 1980s after returning to football.

Yep, the historical facts haven’t changed, and still say you lose, Joey.

You said: “As for the regular season, once again in the head-to-head matchup…(blah)(blah(blah)…”

LOL! In the head to head matchup in 1980 (also at Oakland) Dallas beat the Raiders, but you insist the Raiders were the better team even in that same year. And yet you’re desperately trying to claim that one 1974 Oakland victory at home (by an even smaller margin than the Cowboys’ 1980 win!) in the finale of a regular season where 8-6 Dallas was out of the playoffs and was having their worst season of the decade by far while the Raiders were 12-2 somehow proves Tatum and/or the Raiders were better for the entire 1970s?!?

Is that because you’re

A – A drooling moron
B – A panicked, lying weasel
C- All the above

I’m starting to feel a little sorry for you, Joseph. The facts clearly show that the Cowboys and Harris were better than the Raiders and Tatum overall in the 1970s. In fact Dallas was much closer to the Raiders in 1980 than the Raiders were to the Cowboys in the 1970s or Tatum was to Harris.

You said: “The Cowboys weren’t rebuilding, just underachieving.”

Underachieving? Dallas literally made it to half the decade’s Super Bowls and made the playoffs with double digit winning seasons every other year.

No, they were rebuilding in 1974 after losing a lot of the older wave of great players and overachieved in 1975 after a strong rookie class dubbed “The Dirty Dozen”.

You said: “And, finally, could you explain why Cliff Harris’ name is absent from these? :…”

I’m not going to waste time clicking on your three links because you didn’t even try to integrate them into a cogent argument or explain why you’re posting them. But the first one, a blog I’ve posted at before, is explicitly about Tatum in the title, so it’s unclear why it WOULD mention some other safety. The second one is another blog I don’t recall ever hearing of and from the title looks like some random guy’s opinion. The third looks like the click bait that sites have one of their lower tier writers put up sometimes. I doubt much effort at all was put into its content (the “ranking” of best Super Bowl moments), as opposed to say…..Sports Illustrated gathering its most venerated experts to select their all time NFL team, a big deal at the time by a big magazine, and THE sports publication back then, taking it seriously.

They chose Cliff Harris as their starting free safety. Speaking of which, what was your point? I’ve already linked to more articles from more established experts and sources that DO talk about Harris and compare him favorably with Tatum. So you had no point, but like a moth repeatedly ramming into a light fixture you refuse to cut your losses and keep doubling down on failure.

• Joseph Wright
April 12, 2017

You cowardly, lying, squirming piece of seepage. If you would actually read these links (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/428079-jack-tatum-a-career-defined-by-a-single-unfortunate-incident; https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-greatest-defensive-backs-nfl-history; http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/50-greatest-moments-in-super-bowl-history-020616), you would see that the first one mention that NFL Network listed Tatum among its Top Ten Most Feared Tacklers, and that Harris FAILED to make the list. Now let’s see who’s REALLY credible. You were quick to point out that some fraudulent, accumulating RB was listed by NFL Network in its Top Ten Most Courageous Performances. So I am citing a legit source, right? Look at Razzie squirm! Well, Tatum made Top Ten Most Feared Tacklers and Harris didn’t. So much for your fraudulent, ignorant claim of “Not only was Cliff Harris better than Tatum, he was tougher. I’d rather have my teammate be the guy with intangibles who’s giving it his all all the time than someone who dogs it when the going gets rough.” Hear that, readers? Now this fraudulent Razzie (You know he’s a fraudulent troll; Of Corse, Rasputin is not his REAL name; A man who lies to us and changes his name to tell it like it is–LOL!!!) is saying Jack Tatum was “soft.” And as for highlight footage the last website I mentioned, Tatum’s game footage made it and Harris’ didn’t–unless you count being scorched for a Super Bowl-record 75-yd TD or looking up helplessly at a leaping Lynn Swann TD. Harris IS in those clips. LMAO!!! As for the second website in the bunch, you can’t cite your so-called “anti-Cowboys” bias (ridiculous claim): Mel Renfro, Everson Walls, and Deion Sanders made it…with Tatum…and WITHOUT sorry-ass, overrated Harris.

How credible can you be and how serious can anyone take you when you constantly blow and slobber over Haden and Boryla as Pro Bowl QBs? And great credibility leaving out Tatum’s 24-17 victory over Haden’s sorry ass in 1979. More as time allows. If you can find any other playoff performances by a Tatum-led secondary getting scorched in addition to the Haven Moses game, we’re all waiting. Harris, as we all know, was scorched SEVERAL times in post-season.

• Rasputin
April 13, 2017

Maybe you should have linked to the NFL Network directly instead of some random blog without bothering to explain why you were even posting the links you did, you lazy halfwit. Such rankings shouldn’t be taken too seriously, especially in terms of omissions, because they’re usually carelessly thrown together click or ratings bait, but they might be worth a mention in favor of who is included. I never said Tatum wasn’t a feared tackler (or at least hitter, though Csonka obviously didn’t fear him, lol), you cowardly, lying POS. Quite the opposite. I said he was often a ferociously hard hitter. The real question is if YOU now put stock in such a source, then why are you still stupidly calling Smith “fraudulent”, moron? You can’t squirm your way out of this crushing defeat you’ve suffered, little Joey Wrong. Your credibility is shot.

As for who got torched the most, it’s sledgehammer time again, boy.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

You lose, Joey.

• Joseph Wright
April 13, 2017

So why is it that Tatum’s secondaries were only torched ONCE in the playoffs while Harris-led secondaries were torched FIVE different times by receivers and gave up various passing/receiving Super Bowl records in the process of going down in flames?

How can a secondary as “inferior” as Tatum’s force the ’70s NFC Pro Bowl QBs they faced to complete less than half the passes they attempted paving the way for them to go 7-1 (or 9-2, if you insist on including Archie Manning and sorry, game replacement Pat Haden)?

Your lying, hypocritical, weak-alibied Cowboy crying ways aren’t fooling anyone reading. You mention the NFC East (Or NFC; You tried it both ways but either way, Tatum-led secondaries mowed them down. Big-time failure on your part) Pro Bowl QBs the Cowboys faced and the Raiders were undefeated against them (Staubach–less than 50%, no TDs; Kilmer–less than 50%, one TD; Jim Hart–less than 50%, one TD; Roman Gabriel–less than 50%, one TD). Why was the Tatum secondary so effective against these NFC East Pro Bowl QBs? What is you answer? Or–given that you’re a Cowboy fan–excuse?

As for the Tatum-led secondary shutting down Staubach (No TD passes, less than 50% completion rate–NINE percent lower than his season average!), the victory over the Cowboys is important because
A) It gives an indication as to who was better in the decade had they matched up. The Cowboy couldn’t beat the Steelers with Swann and Stallworth constantly running free through the Harris anchored secondary; The Steelers Hall of Fame wideouts threaded cautiously through the Tatum-led secondary and were 2-4 in the games they played with only two TDs (one each) between them. The record-breaking stats Swann and Stallworth put up against Harris-led secondaries are legend.

B) The record shows Tatum was undefeated vs Harris. Within the game the Tatum-led secondary shut down Satubach; the Harris-led secondary was torched (three TDs) and carved up (Stabler was 11-17–64.7 %. Stabler: “Man, that looks easy!” LMAO!!!) with the insult to injury being burned by a 28-yd. TD pass to Branch from 1,000 year old George Blanda (Harris was TOTALLY out of position on that play. What the hell was he thinking? It’s not like Blanda looked him off or anything. He zeroed in on Branch all the way down the field).

C) With this win, the record shows that Stabler was undefeated vs. Roger Staubach. Within this game Stabler completes 21% more of his passes than Staubach and hits for two scores. Given how much “better” the Harris secondary was than the Tatum secondary, shouldn’t that be in reverse? Explain that, Razzie. What’s the Dallas’ “air-tight alibi” there?

Sidebar: I maintain that Stabler was the best QB in the NFL from ’74-’77. No QB won more games and threw more TDs in that time frame. Who’s the liar now, numbskull?

D) Let’s be real here. The Cowboys offense in ’74 was Calvin Hill, Dennison and Newhouse in the backfield with Staubach; a receiving corp of Drew Pearson, Billy Joe DuPree, and Golden Richards; and an offensive line of Rayfield Wright, Blaine Nye, John Fitzgerald, John Niland and Ralph Neely. Defensively, they featured Hall of Famer Bob Lilly (in his last year), Harvey Martin, Too Tall Jones, Jethro Pugh, and utilityman Larry Cole on the line; linebackers Dave Richards, Lee Roy Jordan and D.D. Lewis, with Harris, Waters, Renfro, Cornel Green, and Mark Washington in the secondary. This is hardly a team “rebuilding.” the 8-6 mark was underachieving, at the least. Or–this would be sacrilege in Dallas–bad coaching, at the worst. The only new faces on offense in ’75 would be Preston Pearson (for Dennison/Hill) and Burton Lawless (for Niland). On defense, the only new faces would be Randy White and “Hollywood” Henderson (and they almost botched that by initially making White a MLB), who were used only in “situational substitutions” that season. It’s ridiculous to say or believe that the lack of a pedestrain, pass-catching running back (Pearson) and a left guard (Lawless) were holding Dallas back. And although White and Henderson were great additions, Dallas still had a good defense (despite the obvious weakness at free safety that left them vulnerable in the secondary). The Raiders didn’t “steal’ or “sneak away” with this win vs. Dallas. They took it! “We kicked their ass. Get used to it. Can’t change it.” Only the garbage time TD by Doug Dennison made the score a four-point spread–just like the two garbage-time TD passes from Staubach in Super Bowl XIII. From ’73 (when the AFC’s dominance really kicked in) to ’79, the Cowboys never beat the Raiders, Steelers or Dolphins. The top tier of the AFC was better than the best (Dallas, Minnesota) the ’70s weaker conference–the NFC–had to offer.

D) When I point out key games and facts that destroy you, you call it “cherry-picking.” So you can use NFL Networks Top 10 to promote Emmitt but I can’t do the same to promote Tatum? GTFOH!!! I gave credit to Haven Moses; he had a great game. So be it. God bless him. But we STILL haven’t heard your response to Harris’ dreadful performances against:
1. John Mackey Super Bowl V–Record 75-yd. TD catch (Never happened against Tatum)
2. Charley Taylor ’72 NFC Title Game–7 catches, 146 yds, 2 TDs (Never had 100+ against Tatum)
3. Harold Jackson ’73–7 catches, 4 TDs, 238 yds (in 1973!!!; No one ever went for 200 vs. Tatum)
4. Lynn Swann Super Bowl X–4 catches, Record 161 yds, TD (No 100-yd games, ONE TD vs Tatum in 6 games)
5. Harold Jackson ’76 NFC Divisional Playoff–6 catches, 116 yds (No 100-yd games vs. Tatum)
6. John Stallworth Super Bowl XIII–3 catches, 115 yrds (one HALF-Record), 2 TDs (one a 75-yarder-Record) –No 100 yd games, ONE TD in 6 games vs. Tatum
7. Swann (Again?) Super Bowl XIII–7 catches, 124 yds, TD (see above)
8. Terry Bradshaw Super Bowl XIII–Record passing 318 yds, record 4 TD passes (No 300+ yrd passing games, never more than 2 TD passes vs. Tatum in 10 games)
9. Vince Ferragamo ’79 NFC Divisional Playoff–3 TD passes of 32, 43, and 50 yds (game-winner; for Harris, we suppose, career-killer). Tatum secondaries allowed no more than two TD passes in 13 playoff games. And in those three games they were 2-1.

The ONLY game in which Tatum’s secondary let the team down was the Haven Moses game. Of the above nine toastings of the Harris-led Dallas secondary EIGHT of these are in the PLAYOFFS. Tatum’s secondaries did better than Harris’ secondaries in playoff time. Can you explain this, Razzie?

• Rasputin
April 13, 2017

Yawn.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

You can keep crying about it, little Joey, lying about it, and trying to distract from the bottom line with blind allegations about cherry-picked games you haven’t even seen, but you can’t squirm your way into escape from the sledgehammer truth, boy. The Tatum Raiders had a worse than NFL average pass defense while the Cowboys were elite. That fact totally destroys you. The few playoff games you desperately try to cling to involved teams that didn’t need to pass because it was easy to run against the soft Oakland defense, skewing down passing numbers, and are a small sample size anyway. A single WR having a big day was usually because they were working on a CB, not a safety. We’ve established that you know nothing about these games you’re obsessively citing. The Cowboys won a lot more than the Raiders in the playoffs and overall anyway.

Cliff Harris was rightly judged to be the best FS of the decade by contemporary observers while Tatum was a marginal 3 time Pro Bowler who rightly never made first team All Pro, though in fairness those All Pro selections were made years before he wrote (or had someone else write) those sensationalistic, self promoting books to generate hype and make a quick buck off of paralyzing someone.

Oh, and apparently the 1980 Cowboys were a lot better than the 1980 Raiders, by your logic, since Dallas kicked Oakland’s ass that year (at Oakland, to boot).

As for your ignorant crap about the 8-6 1974 Cowboys supposedly not being in rebuilding mode, or not at least entering the beginning of a transition, many of their key players since the early to mid 1960s were at the end of their careers. It was the last season for HoFers Bob Lilly and Bob Hayes (Hayes had 0 starts and only caught 7 passes that year), great DB Cornell Green (also better than Tatum), great FB Walt Garrison, and former Pro Bowl O-lineman Dave Manders. Pro Bowl stalwart SOLB Dave Edwards was in the next to last year of his career, great MLB Lee Roy Jordan was in his next to last full season, and HoF CB Mel Renfro’s final Pro Bowl season was already in the rear view mirror, as were O-lineman John Niland’s and numerous other players’.

Some of the young future good players they had were still rookies or second year guys, like Harvey Martin (who was still “too nice” at that point rather than “Too Mean”, and wasn’t yet a starter), Ed Jones (a rookie who also wasn’t a starter), TE Billy Joe DuPree, and WR Golden Richards. Charlie Waters was playing opposite Mel Renfro at CB, badly out of position for his skill set. Later he’d prove to be a great safety but as a CB HE was the one routinely getting torched back there, not Cliff Harris. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

With all these key impending departures not much was expected of the 1975 Cowboys the following season, but as I said they OVERACHIEVED with the help of the strong “Dirty Dozen” rookie class that included guys like Randy White and guys who had been first or second year players in 1974 having an extra year of development under their belts. Even then it required Staubach’s Hail Mary play to advance them past a great Vikings team that may have been the best in Minnesota’s history.

By 1977 the Cowboys had 3 new starters on the defensive line, 2 new starting LBs, and 3 new starters in the secondary (counting Charlie Waters’ move to safety), along with a slew of new offensive starters.

Cliff Harris was the only starting constant on both the 1971 and 1977 Super Bowl champion secondaries.

But sure, go ahead and try to attack Landry for missing the playoffs ONCE in the 18 year span from 1966 – 1983, you drooling moron, and for falling short of double digit wins in 1974 for the first time since 1967, something that wouldn’t happen again until the strike shortened season of 1982.

You’re lucky the Raiders never had to play Dallas in any other year of the 1970s, all of which, unlike 1974, they made the playoffs and posted double digit wins. The Cowboys were far better than the Raiders in the 1970s and overall throughout NFL history. Do you want me to repost those stats too?

BTW, the Cowboys are undefeated all time against the Raiders when they have gotten to play them in their own Super Bowl championship seasons. They beat the Raiders by double digits both times in the 90s, 28-13 in 1992 and 34-21 in 1995, both times at the Raiders’ home. For some reason they almost always seem to play these games at Oakland/Los Angeles. In the two times the Raiders have played the Cowboys in their own championship seasons, Dallas got the split. LA edged out a 40-38 result in 1983, the only one of these meetings at Dallas, while the Cowboys beat the 1980 Raiders at Oakland 19-13. Also, the 1992 Raiders still had Marcus Allen on the team, so by your Pravda “1974” logic they should have been expected to play better than they did, though Emmitt was a lot better overall anyway.

You said: “The top tier of the AFC was better than the best (Dallas, Minnesota) the ’70s weaker conference–the NFC–had to offer.”

Not every season they weren’t. The AFC just had a couple more top teams than the NFC did, but I already said that to you, halfwit. That doesn’t mean the conference was better from top to bottom, it wasn’t. The Steelers and Colts were old, established NFL teams that got moved to the new AFC for balance. Old AFL teams, who made up the bulk of the AFC, only won 3 Super Bowls in the 70s, 2 in the 80s, and 2 in the late 90s. Except for the Dolphins (whom the Cowboys destroyed in Super Bowl VI) and the Raiders (whom the Cowboys didn’t get to play in 1976 but beat in 1980), every Super Bowl from 1970 until 1997 was won by an old NFL team, most of them by NFC teams, 5 of them by the Dallas Cowboys.

Wow. That must sting. You lose again, Joey.

You said: “Sidebar: I maintain that Stabler was the best QB in the NFL from ’74-’77.”

No, earlier you said: “In ’74, ’76, and ’77, Stabler was the best QB in football.”

You listed three specific years, not a lumped together time period. Now you’re weaseling around again, you cowardly buffoon, clumsily attempting a sleight of hand. I get that you were embarrassed when I pointed out that Stabler threw as many interceptions as touchdowns in 1977 and wasn’t in the top 5 in passer rating or yards, but at least man up enough to admit you were wrong and that Stabler was NOT the best QB in 1977.

As for the new position you’ve retreated to that Stabler was the best on average from 1974-1977…..it’s possible to argue that I guess, but it’s misleading. His one spectacular season of 1976 (103.4 passer rating) really skews his average up for the surrounding couple of years. That brief but high peak is a big reason why I’ve supported Stabler for the HoF over the years (though not before even more deserving players like Howley and Cliff Harris). If you exclude that year, however, then his combined passer rating from 1974-1977 was only 79.48, hardly the best in the league, and his career rating was only 75.3 even counting 1976. Stabler was the best QB in 1976 and arguably in 1974 (though his MVP award was nowhere near as well deserved as Emmitt Smith’s), but not in 1975 and certainly not in 1977.

So what’s your excuse for Tatum and Stabler, supposedly brimming with awesomeness, only making it to one Super Bowl while Cliff Harris’ Cowboys made it to 4 with him as a starter?

• Joseph Wright
April 14, 2017

I’ve watched these games or highlight shows focusing specifically on these games. Whenever I point out these epic failed performances of Cliff Harris you fraudulently criticize me for “cherry-picking” or “lying.” Or you cop out and claim I know nothing about these games. If I knew nothing about them I wouldn’t bring them up, dumbass. I am not lying about Harris’ secondary’s sorry performance in these games nor am I selecting random games. These are playoff games that affected history. This isn’t “cherry-picking.” These are facts. And as for the Harold Jackson game in ’73, if Harris was SO superior to Tatum how could a 238-yd. receiving game (on seven catches) occur in as dead a “deadball” year as 1973? Three years later, in a playoff game in Dallas–IN DALLAS–Harris and the gang would give him another 116–from weak-armed, firsttime playoff starter Pat Haden. How badly would Harris’ secondary had been undressed if they faced Cliff Branch in the ’70s (after undressings by Jackson, Swann, and Stallworth)? PLEASE!

As for the ’74 Raiders pasting of Dallas–thanks to the Harris secondary combined with great coverage by the Tatum secondary–it is ridiculous to believe that a team (Dallas; stay with us and keep up, Razzie; your squirming is messing with your comprehension; multitasking definitely ANOTHER weak point) with nine starters (each on offense and on defense) that had been in the playoffs the previous year (NFC Title game) and would go to the Super Bowl the following year would flop to 8-6 and be in third place without serious injuries. They made Clint Longley a one-hit wonder on Thanksgiving ’74, with B.J. DuPree and Drew Pearson catching TD passes from him. Dallas was STILL loaded offensively. And Martin and Too Tall Jones made plays to seal that Thanksgiving win. So, they had studs on defense, too. Dallas wasn’t “rebuilding” or “in transition.” Hardly. They just didn’t get it done in ’74. Translation: underachieved.

I’ve heard all these Cowboys excuses before: Jerry Kramer was offside in the Ice Bowl, the fumble vs. the Colts in Super Bowl V, the officials not penalizing and throwing Jack Lambert out for body-slamming Harris (LMFAO!!!) in Super Bowl X, Jackie Smith’s drop (maybe your ‘boys should have kept Todd Christensen–Thanks, Dallas; much more impactual than John Gesek), the pass interference vs. Lynn Swann, the official “blocking” Charlie Waters, “(fill in the blank) snuck up on the Cowboys,” “(fill in the blank) stole a win from the Cowboys,” Montana was the key because overall Dallas was the better team, the 49ers drove the length of the field because it was covered with catnip, Montana lucked up because he was throwing the ball away, Eric Wright’s horse-collar tackle on Drew Pearson should have drawn a flag, the “tuck rule” would have negated Danny White’s fumble, and, of course, when all else fails, “those weren’t the real Cowboys you saw out there that game.” ENOUGH!

Cherry-picking as you call it only applies when two or three random things are pointed out. I have at least NINE times harris-led secondaries have been torched. EIGHT of these are on the big stage, on national TV. Only the ’73 performance by Jackson (from John Hadl, a regular AFL/AFC Pro Bowl QB, BTW) could be considered random but 238 receiving yards in a single game in 1973 can’t be overlooked. So (we’re STILL waiting), once again explain Harris’ performance against and contribution to:
1. John Mackey Super Bowl V–Record 75-yd. TD catch (Never happened against Tatum)
2. Charley Taylor ’72 NFC Title Game–7 catches, 146 yds, 2 TDs (Never had 100+ against Tatum)
3. Harold Jackson ’73–7 catches, 4 TDs, 238 yds (in 1973!!!; No one ever went for 200 vs. Tatum)
4. Lynn Swann Super Bowl X–4 catches, Record 161 yds, TD (No 100-yd games, ONE TD vs Tatum in 6 games)
5. Harold Jackson ’76 NFC Divisional Playoff–6 catches, 116 yds (No 100-yd games vs. Tatum)
6. John Stallworth Super Bowl XIII–3 catches, 115 yrds (one HALF-Record), 2 TDs (one a 75-yarder-Record) –No 100 yd games, ONE TD in 6 games vs. Tatum
7. Swann (Again?) Super Bowl XIII–7 catches, 124 yds, TD (see above)
8. Terry Bradshaw Super Bowl XIII–Record passing 318 yds, record 4 TD passes (No 300+ yrd passing games, never more than 2 TD passes vs. Tatum in 10 games)
9. Vince Ferragamo ’79 NFC Divisional Playoff–3 TD passes of 32, 43, and 50 yds (game-winner; for Harris, we suppose, career-killer). Tatum secondaries allowed no more than two TD passes in 13 playoff games. And in those three games they were 2-1.

The regular season yardage totals are misleading because of the different conferences they played in, the level of competion, and the styles of play. Apparently, crossing sports, you’d say the Celtics played better defense than the Lakers in the ’80s because of the average points allowed per game. No. The style of play of each conference influenced the numbers. We KNOW what happened when they matched up. Just like we know what happened in the ’70s when the Raiders and Cowboys matched up.

You, Razzie, are the liar, not me. You tried to say or imply that the Cowboys didn’t pad their win totals with Joe Pisarchik and Jerry Golsteyn. They did in ’77 and ’78. The padding of the Giants wins continued in ’79. And they took advantage of a true rebuilding team, the Eagles, from ’75-’78. That’s four given wins a year and a huge help to your defensive stats. Against teams with that meager offensive talent, a guy like Harris would look great all the time and Tatum would be recognized as a world-beater.

Jack Tatum, Jake Scott, Tony Greene, Mike Wagner, Paul Krause, and Glen Edwards were all better safeties than Cliff Harris in the ’70s. That begs the question again: Who’s hand did Harris shake at AP? How many babies did he kiss? How often did he lick Zimmerman’s boots at SI?

You said “Cliff Harris was rightly judged to be the best FS of the decade by contemporary observers (Biased AP; fraudulent “Dr. Z”) while Tatum was a marginal 3 time Pro Bowler who rightly never made first team All Pro (Maybe the AP writers couldn’t relate to the athletic, muscular Tatum and his full-haired Afro; they could definitely live vicariously through the scrawny, fully receded Harris), though in fairness those All Pro selections were made years before he wrote (or had someone else write) those sensationalistic, self promoting books (Ah-hah! So you’re saying AP WAS biased! Thanks, dummy) to generate hype and make a quick buck off of paralyzing someone.”

Some background is needed…badly. The book was in the works in early 1977, shortly after the Raiders won Super Bowl XI. Tatum wanted to tell his life story and give his side of the story concerning the “criminal element” allegations made by Pittsburgh head coach Chuck Noll. Unfortunately, about a year and a half later, the Stingley collision and its terrible results, ultimately became another part of the book. Tatum spoke of Stingley, the play, and its aftermath with great concern and sensitivity. Anyone who reads the whole book–not excerpts taken out of context–will understand that. Tatum never boasted about his LEGAL hit on Stingley and its affects at all. It did affect Tatum and he tried to make a connection with Stingley but was rebuffed by staff at the hospital, Stingley’s family, and Stingley’s agent Jack Sands, who did read excerpts out of context to Stingley. When Tatum did attempt to help Stingley financially–sometimes well-intentioned, other times during book signings–Sands labeled Tatum’s actions “grandstanding.” Mike Haynes–the most unbaised source on the subject you can find–said that when he was on the Raiders he met with Tatum, who was then retired, and talked with him about Stingley. He said Tatum assured him that he had tried to reach Stingley multiple times and had been rebuffed. Haynes also felt that Tatum was sensitive to Stingley’s plight.

• Rasputin
April 14, 2017

You keep harping on the playoffs and saying the regular season stats don’t matter, so let’s see what the real story is.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Ouch. I bet that hurt. You must see the writing on the wall now. Your last ship is sinking. Let’s continue….

Average Opponent Completions – Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games) – 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions – Attempts, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 11.5 – 24.25 per game, 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) – 24 – 44 per game, 54.5%

I could have pointed out that the Raiders only played 12 playoff games, which isn’t much of a sample size compared to a decade of regular season games, or repeated what I’ve said about certain teams (like the Dolphins) only attempting a few passes because they didn’t NEED to throw it more to cruise by Oakland, or observed that the Raiders missed the playoffs more often, creating a filter that skewed their postseason stats up, while the Cowboys kept making the playoffs even when they weren’t at their best, but it’s more fun to prove that you’re wrong even on your own terms, after you’ve been allowed to take enough rope to hang yourself.

You said: “The Tatum-led secondaries simply raised their game at playoff time and clamped down and the Harris secondaries didn’t.”

LMFAO! Apparently not.

Since you continue to mostly just repeat already debunked lies and cherry-picked red herrings, while ignoring most of my counterpoints, I’m not even reading through all your rambling garbage anymore. I’ll just skim it enough to discern what general point you’re feebly raising and crush you with a sledgehammer response as I just did above. If I notice you post something new I might specifically respond to that too. And no, you haven’t seen these specific games you’re listing. At most you’ve watched a highlight or two, but you’re really just checking box scores and blaming it on Cliff Harris if you see a WR have a 100 yard game, ignoring the fact that such an individual performance usually means a CB was being exploited. I’ve actually watched some of these big games in their entirety, and noticed things like Tatum getting trucked by Csonka in the AFC Championship before making the business decision as Csonka ran by him because I was watching full broadcast footage, not some highlight reel. By contrast I’ve never seen Cliff Harris do anything but go all out on every play no matter whom he was hitting.

You start by talking yardage allowed, so it’s sledgehammer time, boy (this never gets old, lol). Given the above playoff comparison, it’s little wonder that there’s an even bigger gap in the regular season.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

The Tatum Raiders got torched so much (Jack Tatum personally got torched, by your logic), that they ranked well below the NFL average, while the Dallas pass defense was elite.

You’re still bent on humiliating yourself about 1974, the Dallas low point of the decade, and the only season they didn’t make the playoffs and have double digit wins. Even after I laid out how most of their great players from 1960s were at or very near the end of their careers, so it was the beginning of a transition period, and that by 1977 they’d have 9 new starters on defense compared to 1974 (counting Waters switching positions) and 5 on offense, including a HoF RB (Cliff Harris was the only starting constant in the secondaries of both the 1971 and 1977 championship teams), you’re insisting that Dallas “underachieved” in 1974, as opposed to overachieving in 1975 (what actually happened), when the team only won 2 more regular season games but became the first wild card team since the merger to make it to the Super Bowl. I’m not sure why.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that your asinine claim is right. That means the 1974, 8-6 Cowboys underachieved when the 12-2 Raiders escaped by 4 points AT HOME. If Dallas had played up to par imagine what a thumping they’d have given Oakland, lol! Shades of 1980, when the Cowboys beat the Raiders at Oakland by a larger margin. Whether due to transition or underachieving, the bottom line is that 1974 was Dallas’ worst season of the decade, so the Raiders really lucked out with scheduling in that meaningless game and still almost lost (as they would lose in 1980).

Then you have a paragraph about alleged Cowboys “excuses” from over the decades that are bunch of well documented things that really happened, with the exception of a couple of items I’ve never heard anyone say. This from the Raiders fan who blamed your playoff loss to Denver on an “early whistle”, Tatum’s low accolades on “bias” because voters somehow thought he was too “muscular” and “full-haired”, Stabler’s long wait for Canton on “bias” from a single voter who didn’t like him, and your pass defense stats sucking for Tatum’s entire tenure variously on either “styles of play”, the Raiders facing better opponents (turned out to be the opposite of the truth, and wouldn’t explain why the Raiders sucked compared to other AFC teams anyway), or the regular season just not mattering as the Raiders supposedly buckled down in the playoffs (also debunked).

The Cowboys don’t need excuses. What’s your excuse for this?

All Time Winning Percentage 1960-2016

Dallas Cowboys – .573% (#1 among NFL teams)
Oakland Raiders – .532% (#11 among NFL teams)

Playoff Seasons 1960-2016

Dallas Cowboys – 32 (#1 among NFL teams)
Oakland Raiders – 22 (#15 among NFL teams)

Super Bowl Wins

Dallas Cowboys – 5
Oakland Raiders – 3

Conference Championship Wins

Dallas Cowboys – 8
Oakland Raiders – 5

Division Championships

Dallas Cowboys – 22 (#3 among NFL teams, only slightly behind Giants and Bears who both started in the 1920s)
Oakland Raiders – 16 (#12 among NFL teams)

Playoff Games

Dallas Cowboys – 61 (#1 among NFL teams)
Oakland Raiders – 44

Playoff Wins

Dallas Cowboys – 34 (#2 among NFL teams)
Oakland Raiders – 25

And all that’s despite the Cowboys playing in the NFC East, the historically toughest division (much tougher than the AFC West). Both teams started the same year, and the Raiders got to face a bunch of other expansion teams their first decade while the Cowboys had to face established NFL powers. So what’s your excuse, little Joey Wrong?

You go on to claim that the Raiders stats are skewed down because they faced better opposition, a repeatedly debunked claim you offer no factual support for.

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

The Cowboys faced way better opponents in the NFC East than the Raiders did in the pathetically weak AFC West.

You said: “You tried to say or imply that the Cowboys didn’t pad their win totals with Joe Pisarchik and Jerry Golsteyn. They did in ’77 and ’78. The padding of the Giants wins continued in ’79.”

I already told you Jerry Golsteyn threw a career total of 16 passes against Dallas, you lying halfwit. The winless 1976 Bucs threw 30 passes against Oakland in one game. And you originally said “’76 and ’77”, despite neither guy entering the league until 1977, lol. Plus Phil Simms was the Giants QB in 1979. You can’t even get your cherry-picked tidbits right, and they are desperate cherry-picking, as the divisional facts above show.

You call me a “liar” for some reason, without explaining why, but you really are a serial liar who keeps desperately trying to squirm out of your own faceplants in cowardly fashion without success.

Your false claims here have been countless, including (but not limited to):

– You denying my statement that Cliff Harris knocked out Rick Upchurch in SB XII, claiming it was Thomas Henderson (I posted video evidence proving you wrong)

– You claiming Gene Hickerson was the only HoF lineman blocking for Jim Brown (Lou Groza and Mike McCormack were HoFers, with several other Pro Bowlers)

– You claiming Lou Groza was just a kicker (he was a HoF tackle, and one of the “finest” to play tackle as the PFHOF website states)

– You claimed Tatum’s “Assassin” nickname was nationally known while no one but locals called Cliff Harris “Captain Crash” (turns out NO ONE called Tatum “Assassin” while he played while national media figures did refer to Harris as “Captain Crash”)

– You claiming the Tatum era Raiders played 8 games against NFC Pro Bowl QBs, going 7-1 (turned out the Raiders only played 2 in the regular season, going 1-1).

I could go on and on. While you haven’t caught me in a single wrong claim, let alone a lie, you have zero credibility.

Me: “Cliff Harris was rightly judged to be the best FS of the decade by contemporary observers while Tatum was a marginal 3 time Pro Bowler who rightly never made first team All Pro, though in fairness those All Pro selections were made years before he wrote those sensationalistic, self promoting books to generate hype and make a quick buck off of paralyzing someone.”

You: “Ah-hah! So you’re saying AP WAS biased! Thanks, dummy”

Huh? The implication of my tongue in cheek comment was that the voting WASN’T skewed by stupid hype like the “Assassin” books, moron, that did color later, low brow public opinion and build Tatum’s “legend”.

You said: “When Tatum did attempt to help Stingley financially–sometimes well-intentioned, other times during book signings–Sands labeled Tatum’s actions “grandstanding.”

Gee, why would anyone label such an “effort” during a book’s publicity campaign as grandstanding?

As for Stingley and Tatum, there are conflicting accounts on whether Tatum even tried to visit or help him. Certainly Stingley denied there were sincere efforts by Tatum. All I know is that Tatum wrote three books on the subject, each with the word “Assassin” in the title (branding), and cashed in.

“Captain Crash” was more humble than the self-named “Assassin”. But Cliff Harris was not only twice as good as Tatum, he was tougher; he was more of a man than Tatum. And while Tatum might enjoy the edge in a Chia Pet style hair growth contest (you’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel by bringing that up, lol), Harris whooped him in the mustache department.

And you’ve been whooped here.

• Joseph Wright
April 17, 2017

All we’ve proven is that you’re a numbskull, coward, and a liar. A liar in that you totally eliminated the 1970 playoffs of the Cowboys (You’re TRYING to admit Harris is the best FS of the ’70s, right.) A coward because if the ’70 playoff stats are used the following happens: A) The Cowboys gave up more passing yards than the Raiders in ’70s playoff games B) The Super Bowl record 75-yd. TD of John Mackey is further indictment that Harris was unfit to protect the middle on the big stage C) The Cowboys at least have a .500 record in the Super Bowl in the ’70s. You are a numbskull to think that none of us would catch that glaring omission. So, John Brodie torched The Harris-led secondary for 262 yards and then the rag-tag team of Unitas and journeyman Earl Morrall toasted them for another 260, including the record-setting TD hookup to Mackey. As for those Super Bowl passing yards, once again lying to the public. Not the totals, Razzie, by making it appear like the Tatum-anchored Raiders were burned badly. They were not, folks. Fran Tarkenton, a Hall of Famer and career 57 percent passer, was held to a .485 completion rate in Super Bowl XI and one TD pass. I’m sure junior will also blow and slobber over Bob Lee’s 7-9 81-yd. one TD pass performance with a 141.2 QB rating–all achieved in garbage time with the Raiders comfortably ahead, 32-7, with under 3 minutes left. With Tatum and other Raiders starters comfortably on the bench. Pathetic attempt on your part, junior. You don’t care how low you stoop. then again you revel in the greatness of Pro Bowl QBs like Mike Boryla and Pat Haden, so I am not surprised that you tried to fudge in the Super Bowl XI mop-up performance of Viking backup QB Bob Lee to diminish the great job of the Raiders secondary while Tatum was ON the field. By willfully omitting the major leaks that Harris sprung in the 1970 playoffs, that shows all of us what a cowardly liar you are, Razzie. And then using garbage time Super Bowl stats of a backup QB in a weak attempt to smear an excellent, dominant defensive effort is an utter disgrace. You went down hard and you didn’t even know it!

Well, I am going to have to deal with you like a kindergartener:

OK, Razzie. How are we doing this morning? We are going to ask you one question at a time because it was wrong to ask you nine at one time. That was too hard for you to deal with and understand…Yes, yes, yes. Now here is the question for you to answer today. OK? John Mackey only caught one pass vs. Tatum for his entire career for 20 yards and it was not a touchdown. Could you please explain why John Mackey took a pass all the way to the endzone against a Cliff Harris anchored secondary for a Super Bowl-record 75-yd. touchdown?

• Rasputin
April 17, 2017

LOL! Cliff Harris wasn’t a starter in any game of the 1970 playoffs, you lying, cowardly moron, much less playing on a “Harris-led secondary”. That’s why from the beginning we’ve been using the span 1971-1979, when both Harris and Tatum were full time starters, and years that as a bonus just happened to overlap completely for maximum fairness to avoid league wide passing stat fluctuation (inflation in the 80s and deflation in the 1970s). Now that you know you’ve been crushed by the facts even on the “playoff” front you’ve been harping on, NOW you suddenly want to start sliding the goalposts around? You want to count the 1980s too? How about the 1990s? Your last ditch attempt to squirm out of this fails miserably. All you did was underscore what an upgrade Cliff Harris was over a very strong safety tandem in Cornell Green and Charlie Waters (though Waters was a rookie).

The “Tatum-led” secondary was torched way more in the playoffs than the ACTUAL Harris-led secondary was.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

The Harris-led Cowboys held their playoff opponents under 50% completion while the Tatum Raiders let them complete more than 50% of their passes.

Opponent Completion Percentage, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 47.7%
Raiders (12 games) – 50.3%

That’s despite the Raiders making the playoffs fewer seasons and therefore not having their relatively mediocre years count against them, while the Cowboys made the playoffs every year but 1974. Unsurprisingly given this, the gap is even bigger in the regular season.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

Whether you want to cry about it or not, the fact is that the Raiders gave up 282 net passing yards in the Super Bowl to the Vikings (Tatum was “torched” for it, by your logic), while letting the Vikings complete 54.5% of their passes.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) – 54.5%

Now, as anticipated, your new excuse is that these torching stats are the result of “garbage time”, a factor you’ve never allowed for the Cowboys in their numerous blow out wins. In fact the Cowboys faced a lot more garbage time than the Raiders did.

Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths)

Cowboys – 25.9 – 10.5; +15.4 point/game margin
Raiders – 29.9 – 20.1; +9.8 point/game margin

Dallas AVERAGED way over a double digit victory in its wins. The Tatum defense allowed almost twice as many points/game, and had a lot more close calls even in wins.

Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Dallas had more than twice as many playoff double digit wins and you’re bleating about “garbage time” as an excuse for Oakland having worse stats, LMFAO?!? Talk about a desperation tactic. In fact 7 of Oakland’s 12 playoff games were decided by less than a touchdown! “Garbage time”, lol? The Raiders were just far less dominant than the Cowboys. Here are their overall playoff scores, counting losses:

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) – 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

I was HOPING you’d stupidly invoke the “garbage time” excuse, you buffoon. It doesn’t get old watching you faceplant. It’s a similar story for the regular season.

Average Scores, Regular Season 1971-1979

Cowboys – 24.2 – 16.1, +8.1 point/game margin
Raiders – 23.9 – 17.5 , +6.4 point/game margin

That’s despite the Cowboys playing in a much tougher division than the Raiders, as we’ve established. As for your repeated attempts to hide behind cherry-picked crap, I could bring up the Steelers passing for 215 net yards in beating Oakland by 6 in 1975 (Dallas only gave up 190 net passing yards in the 4 point SB that followed), Craig Morton’s Broncos torching Tatum for 217 net passing yards before Cliff Harris’ crew held them to 35 net passing yards in the SB that followed, or Cliff Harris and the 1971 Doomsday defense only allowing 1 offensive TD of any kind in the final 18 quarters (regular season and playoffs), a late garbage time score by the Vikings in the first round of the playoffs, and the Cowboys still being the only team in NFL history to hold their Super Bowl opponent without a TD. Tatum never did that. Cliff Harris did.

You lose any way you look at it.

• Rasputin
April 15, 2017

I said you clearly weren’t a chess player, but you’re not much of a poker player either. You gotta know when to fold ’em. You drew bad cards here.

• Rasputin
April 15, 2017

Not sure why I’m indulging this insane tangent, but I forgot to reply to your NBA comment by pointing out that the Celtics WERE better on defense than the Lakers for most of the 1980s, especially early in the decade. Bird himself was 2nd team All Defense 3 years from 1982-1984, and Kevin McHale and Dennis Johnson were routinely either 1st or 2nd team All Defense. The only Lakers I know of who made All Defense from 1981-1988 were Kareem and Michael Cooper. Showtime was about offense, so it’s not surprising that Boston ranked much better defensively most seasons.

That said, basketball is a more flowing game than football and the same players are on offense and defense, so what happens on one side more directly impacts the other to a greater degree than in football where each unit is made up of completely different players and the game is divided into discreet plays.

As for “what happened when they matched up”, some years the Celtics were better and other years the Lakers were better. They met in 3 finals, with the Lakers going 2-1, but if the Lakers had met the 1986 Celtics then Boston would have won and the Celtics would have gone 2-2 (they did sweep LA in the regular season). Similarly, if Dallas had gotten to play Oakland in ANY season other than 1974, then the Cowboys likely would have won by an ever bigger margin than Dallas beat Oakland by in 1980.

I’ll also add that back then the Eastern Conference was tougher (sort of like the NFC East), with the Celtics having to go through teams like the Pistons, the Knicks, Dominique Wilkins’ Atlanta Hawks, and a young Michael Jordan’s Bulls,

• Joseph Wright
April 17, 2017

If the Celtics were a better defensive team than the Lakers then they would have shut the Lakers down in playoff matchups in the ’80s. The Celtics’ defensive stats were enhanced by their conference’s quality and style of play (just like the Cowboy’s defensive stats vs. the ’70s NFC) Bird’s inclusion on any All-Defensive Team is a joke (just like Harris’ anointing as “Best Free Safety of the ’70s”). If Bird were such a great defender why did the Celtics furiously make a point to keep him OFF James Worthy and ON Kurt Rambis whenever the teams matched up? When they matched up in the ’80s Finals the Lakers took two of three from Boston and were the decade’s best team, like the ’70s Steelers. Interesting that at least the ’80s Celtics could claim one championship win over the Lakers. Cowboys couldn’t do that with the ’70s Steelers. LMAO!!! And, no the Cowboys would never have beaten Stabler and Tatum’s Raiders in ’75-77. Branch would have run circles around Harris and the Cowboys DBs and Casper would simply run over them. Tatum would keep Drew Pearson, Richards, and DuPree out of the endzone, just like he did in ’74. Of course, we all know Tony Hill refused (translation: coward) to go over the middle if you want to bring up ’78 and ’79.

• Rasputin
April 17, 2017

You said: “If the Celtics were a better defensive team than the Lakers then they would have shut the Lakers down in playoff matchups in the ’80s.”

That doesn’t logically follow at all, moron. Sometimes the better offensive team wins. Or do you believe the 1999 Rams proved themselves to be a better defensive team than the Bucs and Titans, lol?

There’s certainly no evidence that the Lakers were the better defensive team. Even when they won they didn’t shut the Celtics down. In both the 1985 and 1987 finals the Celtics were only held to 1.6 fewer p/g than their regular season average, while they held the Lakers to 2.4 fewer p/g than their regular season average in each. In the 1984 Celtics victory, a series with one weird game skewing the average, the Celtics averaged 3 p/g more than their regular season average, while the Lakers only averaged 1.8 p/g more.

The Celtics averaged more p/g against the Lakers than they had in the playoffs against the 1984 Knicks and Bullets, the 1985 76ers and Cavs, and the 1987 Bulls and Pistons. By contrast the Celtics held the Lakers to averages in the 110s in all three series, after LA had averaged scores in the 120s-130s against most of their Western Conference playoff opponents.

As for whether Bird or others belonged on ALL NBA Defensive Teams, I tend to agree with the experts (and my own eyes) over your delusional comments. The Lakers did win more, just as the Cowboys won more in the 1970s. By your idiot NFL logic if the Celtics and Lakers had never met in the playoffs, but retained their real life title count, and the Celtics had barely edged out the Lakers in their only regular season meeting all decade in the Lakers’ worst year, then Boston would have proved itself the superior team for the entire decade, lol. Except your actual position is even worse since the Cowboys won twice as many Super Bowls as the Raiders and made it to 4 times as many as Oakland during the Harris/Tatum tenure. The Celtics did play in the tougher conference though, as illustrated by the facts posted above, like how the Cowboys played in the tougher division, and at their best they were the best team of the era as the Cowboys were.

You dodged my comment about you logically now considering the 1980 Cowboys to be better than the Raiders, since they kicked the Raiders’ asses that year (at Oakland to boot).

You said: “And, no the Cowboys would never have beaten Stabler and Tatum’s Raiders in ’75-77.”

LOL! You mean the 1977 Cowboys who ranked #1 in both offense and defense and utterly crushed Denver in the Super Bowl, holding QB Craig Morton to a 0.0 passer rating the game after he had torched the Tatum Raiders for a 102.9 rating, and that is in the argument for the greatest team in NFL history? The Cowboys made the Super Bowl 2 out of those 3 years and would have annihilated Oakland in either of them. Dallas had a good chance to beat the Raiders in 1976 too, as they would beat them at Oakland in 1980 during the Raiders’ next Super Bowl season. And what about 1971 or the rest of the decade? Have you already conceded Oakland would have lost in those years?

Stabler threw as many interceptions as touchdowns in 1977, lol. You’re a joke. Keep the faceplants coming though. It amuses me.

• Joseph Wright
April 18, 2017

Yes the ’77 Raiders–who went into Pittsburgh that season and handled the Steelers easily for their third consecutive victory in that rivalry–would have beaten the Cowboys–who went into Pittsburgh that same year (their “Super Bowl” year) and got pounded by the Steelers (Franco 29 carries, 179 yards, Cliff no doubt making “business decisions,” LOL!!!). The Cowboys benefited from playing in a weak ’70s NFC. The top teams in the AFC (Pittsburgh, the Raiders, Dolphins) ALL swept the Cowboys from ’74 through ’79. And stop the cherry-picking. Pittsburgh was an AFC team. By your moronic logic, they were put in the AFL/AFC and started dominating. The Steelers did not make the playoffs until their third year in the Conference. They were a football laughing stock NFL or AFL. And once they were fully loaded in ’74 (drafting Swann and Stallworth) the Cowboys never beat them until ’85. The ’74 Cowboys were soundly beaten by the Raiders in ’74. No, Dallas was not “rebuilding” or “in transition” as you fabricate more Cowboy excuses. In ’74, Dallas just didn’t get it done.

Now the real business at hand because school is now in session, brain-of-five-year-old. Thanks for foolishly taking the bait and explaining to the readers why you were cowardly starting your comparison at 1971 and not 1970. Cliff Harris was a BENCHWARMER his first year! So, not only was he not even drafted (Tatum was a 1st Round draft pick, BTW), he couldn’t even beat out Charlie Waters! The guy that he teamed with to give Harold Jackson four TDs and 238 receiving yards in ’73 (1973!!), got lit up by Stabler and Blanda–BLANDA!!– in 1974, and made Lynn Swann a Super Bowl record-breaker and Hall of Famer. Great job, stiffs! What would Cliff Branch have done to them in ’75-’77? He’d have run circles around Harris and Waters, all the while taunting them to keep up. LMAO!!!

So the next question for you to answer, Razzie, is this one:
What happened to the Harris-led secondary when Charley Taylor went off in ’72 NFC Title Game–7 catches, 146 yds, 2 TDs (Taylor never had 100+ yards against Tatum)? Way to defend your crown, chumps!

• Rasputin
April 19, 2017

Cliff Harris did beat out Waters (who ultimately proved to be a great player; he was better than Tatum too, and still holds the career playoff interception record) in training camp but missed parts of his rookie year with military service, you drooling moron. He established himself as the starter the following year. Harris was from a small school, so he went undrafted and wasn’t just going to be handed the job the way a hyped up athlete like Tatum was. He had to earn it. But by his first full season he’s the starting FS for the Dallas Cowboys and ends up making first team All Decade. Not too shabby. He also made his first Pro Bowl in 1974, Dallas’ worst season that decade, underscoring that it was a recognition of his individual talent and not just him riding the coattails of a great team. He was a Pro Bowler every season for the rest of his career. As an acknowledgement of his greatness they now give the “Cliff Harris Award” to the nation’s best small school defensive player. That Jack Tatum wasn’t even in the league in 1970 makes your cowardly attempt to squirm around with the dates here all the more pathetic. Keep it apples to apples. To wit, I’ve got something new for you. Common Opponents.

These are teams both the Cowboys and Raiders played in the regular season and/or playoffs in a particular year. Dallas played 36 such games while Oakland played 35. Here are the results.

Record Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 24-12, Winning – 67%
Raiders – 20-12-3, Winning – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 24.4 – 16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders – 20.9 – 18.5, +2.4 margin

These are the full facts, as opposed to your cowardly, laughably futile cherry-picking. It also helps puts the lie to your AFC superiority notion. Without the Steelers, a single team, skewing the SB count, things would look a lot different on top. I did go through it fast so feel free to double check, but even if I missed a game or two it wouldn’t change the result. Dallas almost never played the Steelers and only played the Raiders once (in the Cowboys worst season and still almost beat them at Oakland, lol, supporting my position more than yours), so those results are fluky. In 1972 the Cowboys beat the Steelers while Pittsburgh beat the Raiders twice.

At least twice Dallas and Oakland played a common opponent back to back in the biggest games, the conference championship and the Super Bowl. The Steelers beat Oakland in 1975 and the Cowboys played them closer, allowing fewer passing yards and a smaller point differential.

By far the biggest common opponent was the 1977 Denver Broncos, who played FIVE GAMES(!) against the Cowboys and Raiders that year, including the aforementioned most important ones. The Broncos played almost half a regular season’s worth of games against those two opponents. That’s really the only individual common opponent with a big enough sample set of games to be meaningful, and it occurred in a year when both the Cowboys and Raiders were contenders. No other team from 1971-1979 even played those teams 4 times within a year. Let’s see how they did against this most telling of common opponents.

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 2-0
Raiders (3 games) – 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 20.5 – 8, +12.5 margin
Raiders – 16 – 21.3, -15.3 margin

Yikes. Against the most important and meaningful common opponent of the decade, the Tatum Raiders were torched for 5 TD passes while the Cliff Harris Cowboys allowed zero. Dallas whooped the Broncos by a double digit average while Oakland got trounced by a double digit average over 3 games. The Broncos completed a then healthy 54% of their passes against Tatum’s defense but only 38% against Harris’, and DENVER AMASSED ALMOST THREE TIMES AS MUCH PASSING YARDAGE/GAME AGAINST TATUM’S RAIDERS AS AGAINST HARRIS’ COWBOYS. This evidence, along with mountains of total season stats, indicates that the Cowboys would have crushed the Raiders too. After all, in 1977 Stabler threw as many interceptions as touchdowns, LMFAO! He wasn’t even a top 5 QB that season, let alone “the best” as you earlier claimed. And Tatum wasn’t a top 5 safety. Not even close. Cliff Harris was the best FS in the league, in the middle of a stretch of 3 consecutive first team All Pro selections.

Given the above facts, little wonder that HoF S (and future scout, coach, and GM) Larry Wilson said “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.”

And little wonder that HoF coach George Allen, who hated the Cowboys, called Harris a “rolling ball of butcher knives”.

You said: “What happened to the Harris-led secondary when Charley Taylor went off in ’72 NFC Title Game–7 catches, 146 yds, 2 TDs?”

Charlie Waters playing CB, as I said before. Thank you for again confirming that you don’t know anything about this game other than a quick glance at the box score, lol.

You said: “Way to defend your crown, chumps!”

Losing Staubach for the year to injury in the preseason derailed serious chances of a repeat. He did play at the end of that playoff game to lead an amazing comeback win against the 49ers, but the NFC Championship game was his first start and he clearly wasn’t 100%. He did spend most of the rest of the decade beating the crap out of the Redskins though and crushing their dreams. That 1979 finale win stung Washington so bad that John Riggins retired from football for a while before returning in the 1980s.

That said, the Tatum Raiders only won one Super Bowl in the 1970s, chump! The Cliff Harris Cowboys won two.

You said: “The ’74 Cowboys were soundly beaten by the Raiders in ’74.

By 4 points at Oakland in Dallas’ worst season? Wow….you must REALLY think that was a big ass kicking when the Cowboys beat the “champion” 1980 Raiders by 6 (also at Oakland; it’s as if the Raiders were afraid to play in Dallas), lol!

You’re a joke, Wright. Have you always been a joke, or have you just degenerated in your twilight years? I suspect the former.

• Joseph Wright
April 20, 2017

Razzie, all you can hang onto is the Broncos’ fluky, lightning-in-a-bottle, Cinderella ’77 season. By your “logic,” the Cowboys would have crushed the Steelers, too. Morton hung 27 points on them in the ’77 playoffs (Tom Jackson added a pick six to complete the 34-21 score). Just as everyone outside of Denver suspected: The Broncos’, parachute didn’t open in Super Bowl XII. Quit ducking the real problem of the Cowboys against the top AFC teams from the ’70s. The Cowboys were swept by the Raiders, Steelers, and Dolphins from ’74-’79, six straight games. Early on, the Cowboys were leading the Raiders, 9-3, and then Stabler and Blanda (BLANDA!!) waxed Harris and Waters for three unanswered TDs and that was the game–save for a garbage-time TD by Doug Dennison to make the score “respectable.” The Harris-led secondary was pathetic, while the Tatum-led secondary held Staubach under 50 percent passing with zero TDs. Once again, readers out there, the ’74 Cowboys weren’t “rebuilding” or “in transition.” The ’74 Cowboys just didn’t get it done. The same cast was in the NFC Title game the previous season in ’73 (with Harris giving up a 54-yd TD catch to john Gilliam in the 27-10 Cowboys HOME loss) and made the Super Bowl the following season in ’75. Nine returning starters EACH on offense and defense. It doesn’t fly, junior. Once Bradshaw had some legit big-play threats (Lynn Swann, John Stallworth) to work with, the Steelers beat Dallas relentlessly until 1985. The garbage-time TDs by the ‘Boys in SB XIII camouflages the ass-whipping the Steelers gave Dallas, just like the ’74 Raiders-Cowboys matchup. The Raiders in a similar situation in ’76 trailed the Steelers, 28-14, and scored 17 fourth quarter points to WIN the game. Stabler was much more impressive than Staubach vs. Pittsburgh. As for the ’78 Dolphin game, the Cowboys were down 17-0 and 23-9 before, once again, the Cowboys got a garbage-time TD to make the game look closer than it actually was. You love garbage time, don’t you Razzie? Are you still jacking off over Bob Lee’s Super Bowl XI 7-9, 81-yd, 1 TD passing performance as Tatum and at least four other Raider defensive starters are on the sideline enjoying the last 3 minutes of a 32-7 lead and inevitable championship? You’re pathetic.

The Cowboys didn’t have the people to beat the Raiders or the Steelers from ’74 through the end of the ’70s. They feasted off weak NFC competition. What would Harris and Waters done against Branch or Casper? Those two stiff Cowboys safeties would have gotten smoked (Branch) and run over (Casper). The only common opponent to look at was Pittsburgh. Denver was a mirage.

The Raiders were 3-1 vs. Landry’s Cowboys. What else needs to be said? And against the NFC Pro Bowl QBs of the ’70s, Tatum’s secondaries were 9-2 (Jim Hart, Staubach, Kilmer, Gabriel, Tarkenton, Manning, etc) and allowed less than 50 percent completion percentages in at least 8 of those games. And if you are going to harp on that meager 1980 Cowboys “escape” in Oakland, make no mistake about it: the ’80 Raiders would have destroyed the ’80 Cowboys in Super Bowl XV, just as the ’84 ‘Niners would have destroyed the ’84 Steelers–who randomly beat them at Candlestick–in SB XIX, just as the ’85 Bears would have destroyed the ’85 Dolphins–Monday Night Football win–in SB XX.

OK, junior. School is back in session. As we have found out, you can only answer one question at a time. So here is your latest:

How in the hell did this happen? Harold Jackson ’73–7 catches, 4 TDs, 238 yds (in 1973!!!; No one ever went for 200 vs. Tatum). Jackson and Cliff Branch were clones. That tells everyone ALL they need to know about the Harris secondary going against the Raiders from ’74-’77.

• Rasputin
April 19, 2017

Obviously that should read a -5.3 p/g margin for the Raiders against the 1977 Broncos, compared to the +12.5 p/g margin for the Cowboys in Denver’s 5 games against those teams.

• Joseph Wright
April 20, 2017

Thanks for confirming that Landry chained Harris to the sidelines and kept him ON THE BENCH to save him the embarrassment of getting dusted by TE John Mackey in Super Bowl V on that Super Bowl-record 75-yd. TD catch. Harris would tie the record helplessly trailing John Stallworth the last 40 yards in Super Bowl XIII.

“See Waters? I can get burnt for a Super Bowl-record 75-yd touchdown, too.”

LMFAO!!!

• Rasputin
April 20, 2017

So let’s recap. We’ve established that:

– From 1971-1979, the years Cliff Harris and Jack Tatum started respectively for the Cowboys and Raiders, Dallas allowed much less passing yardage, consistently ranking much better in pass defense than Oakland, posted better point differentials, and won much more. In fact Oakland often ranked among the NFL’s worst in pass defense while the Cowboys typically ranked among the league’s best (refuting your initial, passing yardage based argument).

– The Cowboys did this despite playing in a tougher division that had them facing 8 divisional opposing Pro Bowl QBs to the Raiders’ 3, and 9 divisional opposing playoff teams to the Raiders’ 5 (refuting your excuse about opponent quality).

– Dallas allowed fewer passing yards/game, a lower completion percentage, and fewer net yards/attempt in the PLAYOFFS during that span, surrendering fewer passing TDs/game while catching almost twice as many interceptions/game, and posted a higher playoff winning percentage, despite making the playoffs every year but once while Oakland missed the playoffs 3 of 9 years (refuting the postseason-based argument you had then retreated to).

– Dallas allowed 200+ net passing yards in only 16.7% of its 18 playoff games while Oakland allowed it in 25% of its 12 playoff games.

– Dallas also did this despite posting 8 double digit victories to the Raiders’ 3, and posting a much more dominant point margin/game, thus facing more “garbage time” (refuting your “garbage time” excuse, which had appeared in several of your posts).

– Dallas allowed fewer passing yards/game and a lower completion percentage against COMMON OPPONENTS in the regular season and playoffs than the Raiders, while winning a higher percentage of games (further refuting your opponent quality excuse).

– Again, Dallas did this despite posting a much higher point margin/game than Oakland, thus facing more “garbage time”.

– The Cowboys beat common opponents 67% of the time while the Raiders only won 57% of their games against common opponents.

– Twice the Raiders and Cowboys faced a common opponent consecutively in the AFC Championship and Super Bowl, the Steelers and Broncos, and both years Dallas played better in terms of passing yards allowed and point differential than Oakland had against those teams the previous game.

– The biggest common opponent faced all decade was the 1977 Broncos, who played the Cowboys/Raiders 5 times that year (no other team played them more than 3 times in a year; refuting your attempt to diminish their importance compared to other games you’ve tried to cherry-pick).

– The Cowboys went 2-0 against the 1977 Broncos while the Raiders went 1-2. Oakland got pasted in one game 30-7 while Dallas crushed Denver 27-10 in the Super Bowl.

– In the 1977 AFC Championship QB Craig Morton torched Tatum’s Oakland secondary for a 102.9 passer rating, with the Broncos passing for 217 net yards. In the Super Bowl that followed the Cliff Harris-led Doomsday pass defense held Morton to a 0.0 passer rating and the Broncos to 35 net passing yards.

– Dallas won 2 Super Bowls and 4 conference championship games in the span in question, while Oakland won one Super Bowl (which team’s was a “fluke” again, moron?) and went 1-4 in conference championship games (further refuting your claim about Oakland supposedly buckling down and getting it done in the playoffs while Dallas allegedly didn’t).

– Dallas crushed 2 AFC teams in Super Bowls, the 1971 Dolphins and 1977 Broncos, and played the Steelers to 4 point games in two other Super Bowls, the last one only tilting Pittsburgh’s way with heavy controversy. The Raiders only beat one NFC team in the playoffs, and Oakland still allowed 282 net passing yards and 55% completion in that game. Dallas only allowed an average of 155 passing yards and 47% completion in its 4 Super Bowls.

– The Cowboys beat the Steelers in 1972 without Roger Staubach, while Pittsburgh would end up beating the Raiders twice that year including the playoffs.

– Except for the Dolphins’ and Raiders’ titles, every Super Bowl from the full merger in 1970 until 1997 was won by an old NFL team, Pittsburgh and Baltimore being NFL transplants to the under-powered AFC.

– Dallas only played Oakland once in the 1970s, in 1974, the Cowboys’ worst season by far at 8-6, the only year they didn’t make the playoffs, the only year they didn’t post double digit wins, and the beginning of a transition period as great players from the 1960s retired in a wave resulting in 9 new defensive starters by 1977, and they still almost beat a 12-2 Raiders squad at Oakland in a 4 point game. As the regular season finale in their only year to miss the playoffs, it was literally the most meaningless game Dallas played all decade.

– Dallas didn’t get to play Oakland again until 1980, when they kicked the Raiders’ asses (by your logic) by a larger 6 point margin, again, at Oakland in the Raiders’ Super Bowl year.

– Their contemporaries voted Cliff Harris to 6 Pro Bowls to Tatum’s 3, Harris first team All Pro 3 years to Tatum’s 0, and named Harris first team All Decade free safety.

– HoF S/scout/coach/GM Larry Wilson called Cliff Harris the “finest free safety” in the game, saying that his playing style was influencing what other teams were deciding to do.

– HoF Redskins coach George Allen, who hated the Cowboys, called Harris a “rolling ball of butcher knives”.

– Dallas ranked in the top 7 in pass defense in each of Harris’ last four years (the top 5 in three out of those four seasons), and dropped from 3rd in his last year to 16th in their first year without Harris. This was despite them getting Charlie Waters and Ed Too Tall Jones back, who had both missed Harris’ last season (refuting your baseless contention that the team’s success was somehow despite Harris instead of partly because of him).

– Meanwhile the Raiders ranked in the 20s in pass defense in each of Tatum’s last four years, and rose to 19th in their first year without him (refuting your baseless contention that Tatum was vital to the Raiders or even necessarily the best DB on a team more appropriately noted for its corners than its safeties).

– After 1973 no Dallas CB made the Pro Bowl in the span discussed; only safeties did. After 1975 no Raiders DB of any type made the Pro Bowl.

– The Cliff Harris secondary only surrendered 1 TD of any kind for the final 18 quarters of the 1971 regular season and playoffs, and the Cowboys remain the only team to hold their Super Bowl opponent out of the end zone as they crushed Miami 24-3. Tatum’s team never came close to doing anything like that. The Raiders’ strength, when they were good for a while, was their offense more than their defense.

– You are a liar.

– You are a moron.

Whether Cliff Harris or Jack Tatum is “better” is ultimately a subjective judgment, but the above are all ironclad, factual points, with the exception of the last two which require some judgment, though it’s a fact that you’ve made multiple objectively, provably false statements.

You’ve already posted your counter argument…..look at this alleged event in this game here or that cherry-picked game there……there’s no need to continue repeating yourself. I think it’s clear the Cowboys were the better team and would have beaten the Raiders if they had played in any other year, or maybe even in 1974 if they had played in Dallas, probably by a greater margin than they beat Oakland in 1980, but it doesn’t matter much to this debate either way. Your position has been annihilated. Your defeat here has been quite thorough.

Do you have anything new to contribute or is that it?

The above evidence indicates the images that better represent the era are Cliff Harris knocking out Rick Upchurch in the Super Bowl, while Tatum gets trucked by Larry Csonka, makes a business decision later when the back runs by him, and gets torched by Haven Moses in the AFC Championship game. Such imagery is more in line with the overall facts.

Regardless, the evidence overwhelmingly favors the position that Cliff Harris was the better player.

• Joseph Wright
April 21, 2017

You lying, sniveling, idiotic coward. Those are misleading stats and accounts:
“– Dallas crushed 2 AFC teams in Super Bowls, the 1971 Dolphins and 1977 Broncos, and played the Steelers to 4 point games in two other Super Bowls, the last one only tilting Pittsburgh’s way with heavy controversy. The Raiders only beat one NFC team in the playoffs, and Oakland still allowed 282 net passing yards and 55% completion in that game. Dallas only allowed an average of 155 passing yards and 47% completion in its 4 Super Bowls.”

“– The Cowboys beat the Steelers in 1972 without Roger Staubach, while Pittsburgh would end up beating the Raiders twice that year including the playoffs.”

First off, in the Raiders Super Bowl rout of the Vikings, the 7-9, 81-yd , one TD garbage time stats of Viking backup QB Bob Lee distort the picture. The score was 32-7 in favor of the Raiders with less than five minutes left to go and Tatum and at least four other defensive starters were on the sidelines enjoying the inevitable championship, dumbass. For the record, Tarkenton–the Pro Bowl QB that the Tatum-led secondary shut down–was 17-35 (.485) for 201 net passing yards and one TD, readers out there. Yes, readers, Rasputin is a coward and a liar but, then again, he’s a Cowboys fan. And, no, Super Bowl XIII was not a controversial Steelers win just another ass-whippin’ they laid on the Cowboys. They were up 35-17 deep into the fourth quarter and then Dallas scored two garbage time TDs to make it look closer than it was.

That ’72 Dallas win over Pittsburgh came BEFORE Swann and Stallworth (I could add Lambert to bodyslam Cliff Harris’ sorry ass, but I digress. LMAO!!!). After Swann and Stallworth were there to give Bradshaw a fair fight, as Bradshaw said, “We kicked their (Dallas) ass every time we played ’em. Get used to it. Can’t change it.” Ron Shanklin and Frank Lewis? Really? Because Shanklin and Lewis couldn’t exploit the obvious weaknesses of Harris’ coverage, the Steelers got upgrades (Swann, Stallworth) and that was the end of Cliff Harris and Charlie Waters. The Steelers’ ’72 playoff win vs. the Raiders is FAR more controversial than Super Bowl XIII. Super Bowl XIII isn’t even controversial at all. The best team won.

The biggest common opponent was not a fluky, lightning-in-a-bottle, Cinderella team (’77 Denver Broncos) but the ’70s best, the Pittsburgh Steelers. Once Pittsburgh became the complete package in ’74 the Raiders played them six times, the Cowboys four times. Stabler and the Tatum-led secondary went 4-2 against the Steelers in that span and Staubach and the Harris-led secondary was 0-4.

Here is the question today, chicken:

Why was the Tatum-led secondary SO much more successful vs. Swann and Stallworth while the supposedly “better” Harris-led secondary saw records fall–BIG TIME (Swann’s 161 yards-SB X; Stallworth’s 115 yards in one half and record-tying 75-yd TD with Harris trailing-SB XIII;Bradshaw-first-ever 300-yd SB passing game and SB-record 4 TD passes-SB XIII)–against Swann and Stallworth? Explain just that question. A) If you’re not a coward and B) If you’re not an idiot. Swann and Stallworth just DANCED through that Dallas secondary with NO FEAR of “The Best Free Safety in the NFL.” LMFAO!!!

• Rasputin
April 21, 2017

Yawn.

“Garbage time” –

Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths)

Cowboys: 25.9–10.5; +15.4 point/game margin
Raiders: 29.9–20.1; +9.8 point/game margin

Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Your “garbage time” excuse fails because Dallas faced a lot more of it in the playoffs and still performed better in pass defense and overall than Oakland. Also note that the Cliff Harris Doomsday squad allowed almost 10 points less per game than Tatum’s crew.

Common Opponents –

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Same here. Your squirming cherry-picking will keep being crushed by the full facts, coward.

You said: “First off, in the Raiders Super Bowl rout of the Vikings, the 7-9, 81-yd , one TD garbage time stats of Viking backup QB Bob Lee distort the picture…..For the record, Tarkenton–the Pro Bowl QB that the Tatum-led secondary shut down–was 17-35 (.485) for 201 net passing yards and one TD, readers out there.”

Even if you just take Tarkenton’s stats that’s a worse defensive performance than the Cowboys averaged through their 4 Super Bowls, despite Dallas facing extreme garbage time in the blowout wins over the Dolphins and Broncos. In those 4 Super Bowls Dallas only allowed 155 net passing yards/game and a 47% completion percentage. You still lose, chump.

You said: “The Steelers’ ’72 playoff win vs. the Raiders is FAR more controversial than Super Bowl XIII.”

Nope. While SB XIII was extremely controversial for reasons already laid out, the Steelers beat the Raiders TWICE in 1972. Doesn’t look like there’s any controversy there.

You said: “That ’72 Dallas win over Pittsburgh came BEFORE Swann and Stallworth…. Ron Shanklin and Frank Lewis? Really? Because Shanklin and Lewis couldn’t exploit the obvious weaknesses of Harris’ coverage”

LOL! The Shanklin/Lewis Steelers beat the Raiders TWICE that year, AGAIN in 1973, and AGAIN in the 1974 playoffs. The Steelers won the Super Bowl with Shanklin and Lewis as their starting WRs. But the Cliff Harris Cowboys kicked Terry Bradshaw’s ass in 1972 even without Roger Staubach, a bigger deal than who’s playing WR.

You said: “Why was the Tatum-led secondary SO much more successful vs. Swann and Stallworth”

The better question is why was the “Tatum-led secondary” so deficient against Shanklin and Lewis compared to the Harris Cowboys?

That said, you’ve been placing a huuuge amount of stock in John Stallworth showing up. Stallworth didn’t even become the full time starter until 1977, moron, at which point the Tatum Raiders only played him ONCE. Pittsburgh didn’t play Oakland in 1978 or 1979, when the Steelers were at their best.

Stallworth didn’t start against the Raiders in the 1975 playoffs. LEWIS was still starting alongside Swann. Stallworth DID START AGAINST THE COWBOYS in the Super Bowl that followed, however. Despite that, Stallworth caught 2 passes for 30 yards and a TD off the bench against Oakland while the Cowboys held him to 2 catches for 8 yards and 0 TDs.

There were only 3 years all decade when the Steelers were a true common opponent, playing Dallas and Oakland the same season (things change from season to season in the NFL), and the Cowboys performed better in most metrics.

In the 1975 playoffs Pittsburgh beat Oakland by 6, completing 60% of their passes for 215 net yards, while they only edged out Dallas in the following game by 4 points, completing 47% of their passes for 190 yards.

In 1977 the Raiders did win, but they allowed 217 passing yards. Dallas didn’t win, but they only allowed 92 passing yards, so it wasn’t primarily the fault of their pass defense.

In 1972 the Cowboys allowed 142 yards, 30.8% completion, and 0 TDs against Pittsburgh. The Raiders allowed 144 yards at 44% completion and 1 TD in one game and 106 yards at 41.2% completion and 1 TD in the other, with them losing both games by 4 and 6 respectively while the Cowboys beat the Steelers by 4.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

It’s hard to confirm regular season starting lineups, but Stallworth appears to have only seen significant action in a couple of games against each team during the Harris/Tatum era.

In 1976 Stallworth caught passes in 3 games all year, but by far his best performance was at Oakland, where he caught 6 passes for 94 yards and a TD. In the two games against other teams he went for 19 and -2 yards, respectively.

In 1977 against the Raiders he went for 87 yards on 3 catches, his third biggest yardage total of the year and his highest yards/reception at 29, while against Dallas he went for 46 yards on 4 catches, and 11.5 yards/reception.

Doesn’t seem like Pittsburgh did a better job against Stallworth after all. Seems more like you were fishing for an arbitrary cut off point to boost your shattered argument.

That said, if you count the 4 games the Harris Cowboys played against the Steelers once Stallworth joined them in 1974 and the 6 games Oakland played against them, even when Stallworth was a backup, Dallas allowed 172 net passing yards/game while the Raiders allowed 170 y/g, practically a wash. And if you exclude the controversial SB XIII, which skews the stats, and in fairness the worst Raiders pass defense performance (surrendering 242 yards in 1976), here’s what you get:

Net Passing Yards/Game Allowed Versus Steelers (minus each’s worst performance) 1974-1979

Cowboys – 132.3 y/g
Raiders – 155.6 y/g

The Cowboys consistently kept the Steelers to fewer passing yards even in the Stallworth era, except for that one controversial, fluky game skewing the numbers (and even counting that it’s practically tied). That was from a year, 1978, in which the Raiders didn’t play the Steelers and weren’t even good enough to make the playoffs. Talk about apples and oranges.

I’m not saying the above figures are a big deal, just that they undermine whatever pathetic point you’re trying to make with your tantrum here. And Stallworth didn’t even start in most of those games. The truth is that the Cowboys didn’t play the Steelers enough to get meaningful results that can lead to conclusions apart from those particular games themselves.

The least fluky common opponent by far was the 1977 Denver Broncos, because they played the Raiders/Cowboys a total of 5 times that year. Whatever those results are worth, they’re a lot more meaningful than the Steelers as a comparison.

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

These results are clear and decisive. Even weightier are the total common opponents results listed above, and the total results I’ve posted elsewhere on this thread that reinforce them.

The real question is why did the Tatum secondary perform so much worse against common opponents, and overall in the playoffs and regular season than the Harris secondary did?

PS – You never actually gave an example of me “lying”, little Joey Wrong. An example of an actual lie is your claim that Thomas Henderson knocked out Rick Upchurch in the Super Bowl instead of Cliff Harris, which you made because you didn’t know I could link to publicly available evidence showing anyone reading this that you were wrong. Or you insisting that Lou Groza was only a kicker and not a tackle. Stuff like that. By contrast you can’t post a single claim I’ve made that’s wrong, let alone a “lie”. I don’t mean something you disagree with; I’m talking about a factual statement you can objectively prove to be false. You can’t do it.

The most important question remaining is how thorough and utterly humiliating do you want your ongoing defeat to become before you finally cut your losses?

• Joseph Wright
April 25, 2017

Re: Pittsburgh’s respective matchups with the Raiders and the Cowboys from 1974-79:
“I’m not saying the above figures are a big deal, just that they undermine whatever pathetic point you’re trying to make with your tantrum here. And Stallworth didn’t even start in most of those games. The truth is that the Cowboys didn’t play the Steelers enough to get meaningful results that can lead to conclusions apart from those particular games themselves.”

Really? The Cowboys played the Steelers four times after the Steelers drafted the Hall of Fame receiving duo of Lynn Swann and John Stallworth (Super Bowl X and then three straight years: ’77, ’78, and ’79). Lost ’em all (Three straight years? Where’s the balls? Where’s the “revenge factor?”). Harris and the Cowboys secondary was regularly smoked by the two receivers, who ran through that sieve of a defensive backfield with absolutely NO fear and set records in the process. The Raiders meanwhile played Pittsburgh a half dozen games in that span and won four of six, including the last three in a row. In the six games, Swann had only one TD catch and no 100-yd. games and Stallworth had only one TD catch with no 100-yd. games. The duo had no TD catches in the last three games of this span–all Steeler losses. And the Steelers were the best team in the ’70s. The “meaningful results” definitely lead to these “conclusions”: A) The Steelers were clearly a much better team than the Cowboys after they drafted Swann and Stallworth B) The Harris-led secondary was overmatched when facing the two wideouts C) The Raiders matched up better vs. the Steelers and gave them a better run for their money than Dallas D) The Tatum-led secondary cut into Swann and Stallworth’s impact on games much more successfully than the slow, overrated Cowboys secondary led by the slowest and most overrated of all, Cliff Harris.

Do you see what a squirming cowardly liar Rasputin is, readers? All I asked was, “Why was the Tatum-led secondary SO much more successful vs. Swann and Stallworth while the supposedly “better” Harris-led secondary saw records fall–BIG TIME (Swann’s 161 yards-SB X; Stallworth’s 115 yards in one half and record-tying 75-yd TD with Harris trailing-SB XIII;Bradshaw-first-ever 300-yd SB passing game and SB-record 4 TD passes-SB XIII)–against Swann and Stallworth? Explain just that question.” JUST THAT QUESTION.

Watch him fail to answer the question again. More misleading stats to come, no doubt. Then again, I guess it is amazing. I didn’t know chickens could work a keybord.

• Rasputin
April 26, 2017

It took you four days to reply with that drivel? Did you miss where I just destroyed your premise, Joseph Wright, you drooling, cowardly moron? The Raiders only played the Steelers ONCE after John Stallworth became the full time starter, and Oakland didn’t play Pittsburgh at all in 1978 or 1979 when they were at their best the way the Cowboys did. As for years when they both played Pittsburgh (apples to apples)…..

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

The Tatum Raiders never played the Steelers again after that, lol. And the Cowboys didn’t play the Steelers in 1976 (when Pittsburgh was injury riddled, partly due to Raiders safety George Atkinson’s cheap shot on Swann, when he clotheslined him in the head from behind after the play had already gone the other way, prompting the “criminal element” remarks about Oakland) or 1973 (the year after the Cowboys beat the Steelers). Your pathetic squirming has only led you into yet another ditch you’ve lost in, little Joey Wrong. The 1977 Broncos comparison is more important anyway since you’ve repeatedly made the laughable claim that the Raiders were the better team that year (Dallas ranked #1 in both offense and defense and twice crushed the team that beat Oakland twice, LOL!) and Stabler was the best QB (he threw as many interceptions as touchdowns, LMFAO!). Don’t forget this either:

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Super Bowl Wins With Harris/Tatum As Starters

Cowboys – 2
Raiders – 1

Conference Champion Records With Harris/Tatum As Starters

Cowboys – 4-2
Raiders – 1-4

Kicking your ass never gets old. Like I said, you drew bad cards. The Cowboys were clearly a better team and Cliff Harris was clearly a better player.

• Joseph Wright
April 26, 2017

More lies and chicken-heartedness from Rasputin, folks!

The latest: “The Raiders only played the Steelers ONCE after John Stallworth became the full time starter, and Oakland didn’t play Pittsburgh at all in 1978 or 1979 when they were at their best the way the Cowboys did. As for years when they both played Pittsburgh (apples to apples)…..”

Stallworth was playing regularly in the Steelers lineup opposite Swann since his rookie year. Although at times he didn’t start the games he played extensively in them. Oh, here’s a GOOD one, Razzie. Check the starting lineup of wide receivers in the ’81 NFC Title game (The Catch, dumbass. Not the Cowboy beatdown in Philly). Notice the guy who torched Dallas for the first touchdown didn’t start the game. This is to show how childish, cowardly, and ridiculous Razzie is. If a guy who destroyed the Cowboys didn’t start vs your team (even though he played a majority of the game and was shut down/out) or if the Cowboys and your team didn’t play Team X (that destroyed Dallas but your team beat Team X) in the exact same year (even though the matchup is well within the era) , or if a Pro Bowler who destroyed Dallas was shut down/out by your team but he wasn’t a Pro Bowler that particular year, so then it doesn’t apply. GTFOH!! Notce, BTW, how Razzie didn’t include John Stallworth’s TD catch in Pittsburgh’s ’77 beatdown of the Cowboys (the Raiders beat the Steelers earlier that year in Pittsburgh as the Tatum-led secondary kept Swann and Stallworth out of the endzone.

As for the second part of Rasputin’s lie (“Oakland didn’t play Pittsburgh at all in 1978 or 1979 when they were at their best the way the Cowboys did”) the Raiders played the Steelers twice in ’76. That year the Steelers had two 1,000 rushers (Franco Harris, Rocky Bleier) and the defense keyed a regular season-ending 9-game winning streak in which the defense allowed 28 points in that span including five shutouts. The only notable injury was Terry Bradshaw, who missed six games–all of which the Steelers won. Swann only missed four games. In the midst of all this The Raiders beat the Steelers twice–31-28 in the season opener and 24-7 in the AFC Title game to send them home and end the three-peat attempt. And for good measure, with everyone in place for the Steelers in the second game in ’77, the Raiders controlled them again 16-7, in a game that was 16-0 well into the fourth quarter. Tatum and the Raiders defense held Swann and Stallworth out of the endzone and held each below 100 yards receiving. Additionally, Franco was held to 64 yards as Tatum stuffed him on a key third down at the goalline. For more on this game see: https://www.si.com/vault/1977/10/03/626756/once-more-with-no-hard-feelings# > Later that year, the Steelers pounded the Super Bowl-bound Cowboys, 28-13, as Franco ran through the Dallas defense for a career-high 179 yards and two TDs (a 61-yarder up the middle and a 2-yard bash. Where was Cliff Harris?) on 29 carries and Swann and Stallworth danced in the Cowboys endzone under the expert “coverage” and “leadership” of “The Best Free Safety of the 70s.” Tatum stuffs Franco at the goalline and Cliff Harris is nowhere to be found. Tatum makes efforts at tackling Larry Csonka and Cliff Harris is nowhere to be found. Interesting. Back to where you belong, junior.

• Rasputin
April 26, 2017

Once again you lie about me “lying”, little Joey Wrong. You quote me observing that the Raiders only played Pittsburgh once after John Stallworth became the full time starter in 1977, which is true, and me stating that Oakland didn’t play the Steelers in 1978 or 1979, which is also true. LOL! Where’s the alleged lie, moron? Do I need to repeat the list of actual lies by you I’ve quoted elsewhere to give you guidance on how to use examples in argumentation? As for whether it’s relevant if a player you’ve been placing enormous emphasis on is even a starter yet….yes. Clearly so. I already documented in detail Stallworth’s history against both teams. You did a far less complete job of it than I did, but then cherry-picking like the sniveling, beaten coward you are is all you’ve ever done here, since the overall facts annihilate you. What’s sad is that even on the cherry-picking you lose.

You said: “Razzie didn’t include John Stallworth’s TD catch in Pittsburgh’s ’77 beatdown of the Cowboys (the Raiders beat the Steelers earlier that year in Pittsburgh as the Tatum-led secondary kept Swann and Stallworth out of the endzone.”

He scored a TD but about half as many yards as he posted against Oakland. In the 1975 playoffs Stallworth scored a TD and 30 yards against Oakland coming off the bench, but when he started against Dallas in the next game the Cowboys held him to 8 yards and 0 TDs.

Then in 1976 he did this:

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

See? Cherry-picking doesn’t really work. It’s easy for me to ask why Stallworth was much more successful against the Raiders than other teams.

You said: “the Raiders played the Steelers twice in ’76. That year the Steelers had two 1,000 rushers (Franco Harris, Rocky Bleier)….The only notable injury was Terry Bradshaw”

BOTH OF THOSE 1,000 YARDS RUSHERS MISSED THE PLAYOFF START AGAINST OAKLAND WITH INJURIES, LOL! Franco Harris didn’t play at all and Bleier had 0 carries or catches. Pittsburgh started career backup Reggie Harrison at RB. I’d call those “notable” injuries, you lying clown. Even the Steelers’ kicker was out, with a backup center having to serve as an emergency replacement, and numerous other guys were playing with injuries.

As for that 31-28 opener you’re bragging about, which was at Oakland btw (more lucky Raiders scheduling), and where your team needed a comeback, Bradshaw ripped your team for 253 passing yards and 56% completion (good for that era). Stallworth had his aforementioned 96 yards (by far his season high), and that was the game when George Atkinson (it wasn’t even Tatum, who was apparently largely irrelevant to what happened with Swann, good or bad) took the cheap shot from behind on Swann away from the play that injured him for weeks. He had also done that to Swann in 1975, giving him a concussion both times. I guess that’s one way to control a WR. If you’re a cheap shotting coward.

Unfortunately the refs didn’t see it at the time, but Rozelle fined Atkinson $1,500 (a huge sum back then) and said he could not recall a more flagrant foul in his 16 year tenure as commissioner. Even the Oakland Tribune condemned Atkinson’s dirty play, saying that the move could have killed Swann, and then he’d rightly be facing a murder charge. Instead of exhibiting remorse, Atkinson hilariously sued the Steelers and his own city paper for “defamation of character”. Atkinson lost his stupid lawsuit and he and the Raiders organization were humiliated on the national stage. That’s the best you’ve got to brag about? A season tainted with shame? Sad. You said: “And for good measure, with everyone in place for the Steelers in the second game in ’77, the Raiders controlled them again 16-7, in a game that was 16-0 well into the fourth quarter. Tatum and the Raiders defense held Swann and Stallworth out of the endzone and held each below 100 yards receiving.” Just barely, lol. The Steelers started out awful in 1977, limping out to a 4-4 record (so it wasn’t that the Raiders were so awesome; they weren’t) before turning things around and finishing on a 5-1 streak to make the playoffs. And as a team (remember the opponent is a team, not just one guy), the Raiders surrendered 217 net passing yards (268 by Bradshaw individually) that game. Dallas, playing a much better Steelers team that had already started its win streak, held the Steelers to 92 passing yards, and held Swann and Stallworth to 9 yards and 46 yards respectively. Of course Dallas did give up a big rushing day, which was about the only time the Steelers had a good running day against the Cowboys. No team has gone perfect except the 1972 Dolphins and it’s common for a team to have a letdown after a long winning streak. Heck, after opening with 8 straight wins Dallas had dropped the previous game to the moribund CARDINALS, so it’s not like Pittsburgh did anything magical. Dallas just had a 2 week lull that they then shook off, elevating their play to championship level and historical greatness. And at least those 2 fluky games were relatively close. The 1976 Raiders got absolutely CRUSHED 48-17 by the New England Patriots! Are you kidding me? Patriots QB Steve Grogan completed 71.4% of his passes for 3 TDs and a 120.5 rating against Tatum’s Raiders. The Patriots also STEAMROLLED Oakland with 296 rushing yards and 4 more TDs. What happened to your defense, little Joey? Did Tatum, Atkinson, and the rest decide to give playing clean the ‘ole college try for one week? I guess that didn’t work out for them. It was extremely rare for anyone to rush successfully against the Cowboys, in part because Cliff Harris was always so willing to come up and tackle hard and well when needed, unlike Jack Tatum, who started making business decisions against Larry Csonka in the playoffs after being trucked a few times. That’s not the only reason why the Cowboys were also better on run defense than the Raiders in the 1970s, but it’s part of the reason. The Cliff Harris Cowboys shut down Csonka for only 40 yards in crushing Miami 24-3 in Super Bowl VI, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Have you even watched the game? In fact Dallas NEVER allowed Larry Csonka to have a 100 yard game against them. By contrast Csonka pounded the Tatum Raiders for 117 and 114 yards in the 1973 and 1974 playoffs, respectively. You lost this debate decisively from the get go, but I warned you that your defeat would become more and more thorough if you persisted. Even your cherry-picked diversions blow up in your face. You’re having your illusions about Tatum and now even your glorious 1976 season stripped away. I meant it when I said you had drawn bad cards. Little wonder that Cliff Harris was rightly considered the decade’s best free safety. • Joseph Wright April 28, 2017 My Razzie lies, readers: “Just barely, lol. The Steelers started out awful in 1977, limping out to a 4-4 record (so it wasn’t that the Raiders were so awesome; they weren’t) before turning things around and finishing on a 5-1 streak to make the playoffs. And as a team (remember the opponent is a team, not just one guy), the Raiders surrendered 217 net passing yards (268 by Bradshaw individually) that game. Dallas, playing a much better Steelers team that had already started its win streak, held the Steelers to 92 passing yards, and held Swann and Stallworth to 9 yards and 46 yards respectively.” What he deceptively kept from the information is: A) The previous week the Steelers opened the season with a 27-0 shutout vs the 49ers while the Raiders also opened with a shutout (24-0 vs. Chargers), so it was a matchup of unbeaten, unscored upon teams with the Steelers sounding off about “we have Franco and Rocky this time.” B) That Bradshaw threw seven checkdowns to running backs (Franco, Bleier, Harrison) for 92 yards. That’s the responsibility of the LBs, who Razzie once fraudulently said was the heart of the Raiders ’70s defense. Outside of Ted Hendricks, who was on that crew? I’m sure he’ll look it up. his reading isn’t THAT bad. Razzie knows nothing about football. The lucky up-for-grabs TD to the TE Cunningham was deep into the fourth quarter with the Raiders leading comfortably, 16-0. C) Razzie says the Steelers were playing better when the Cowboys met them then follows by saying the Steelers victory is a fluke—LIES! LIES! LIES! And, oh, by the way, how in the Hell is a 28-13 beatdown “relatively close?” C) Held Swann to nine yards? Guess what? Tt was a Touchdown. LOL!!! D) Bradshaw only had 106 yds passing because the Cowboys with Harris making business decisions, no doubt, pounded the Dallas defense for 228 rushing yards with Franco doing 179 yards of damage on 29 carries. You’re a pathetic joke. Check out the stats of this ’77 Dallas loss to the Steelers and compare it to the Raiders loss to the Steelers in the ’74 AFC Title game. Franco ran far less efficiently against the Raiders on the same number of carries. And the Raiders had a much weaker front for for Tatum to work with and Bradshaw passed for less yards and a lower percentage on more attempts. At least Tatum had a fumble recovery in that game. Harris did nothing vs. the Steelers with Swann and Stallworth in the mix. Now, Razzie, THAT is how you measure a common opponent. And the Raiders beat the Steelers three of the next four time they faced them. Dallas couldn’t muster even ONE win. “As for that 31-28 opener you’re bragging about, which was at Oakland btw (more lucky Raiders scheduling), and where your team needed a comeback,” “Luck Raiders scheduling?” The Raiders had just played the Steelers in Pittsburgh in the AFC title game the previous year and the last regular season matchup between the two teams was in Pittsburgh, dumbass! “Where your team needed a comeback” I’MA LUUUV this one: Something Staubach could NEVER do vs. the Steelers. LMFAO!!!!!!! As for the ’76 New England blowout on the Raiders: Hey, numbskull? Why are you being a lying coward and leaving out the Raiders-Pats rematch in the ’76 playoffs? How did that turn out? LMAO!!! Pimp-slapped you like the ’70s Steelers and ’74 Raiders always did the Cowboys. • Rasputin April 28, 2017 You still have yet to quote a single “lie” I’ve supposedly told, little Joey Wrong, while I’ve cited your lies all over this page. Does this mean you’re blaming the Raiders’ lousy pass defense stats on their LBs rather than their secondary, lol? Your latest pathetic excuse for the Harris Cowboys crushing the Raiders in these metrics in the regular season, the playoffs, and against common opponents is that Dallas had better LBs (they’d have to have been vastly superior)? As I said before, the Raiders’ LBs were the strength of their defense. Ted Hendricks is in the HoF and was first team All Decade, lol. Phil Villapiano made 4 Pro Bowls in the 1970s. These guys both played throughout Tatum’s career at Oakland. Are you saying they’re overrated? Dallas had some great LBs too, but NONE of them are in the HoF. Chuck Howley and Lee Roy Jordan should be, but Howley’s last real season was 1972 and Lee Roy Jordan retired half way through the decade, so they couldn’t account for the huge pass defense disparity between Dallas and Oakland in the second half of the 1970s. Of the successors who played in the mid to late 1970s, DD Lewis has 0 Pro Bowls, Thomas Henderson has 1 (and only started 3 years before being released for drug related reasons), and Bob Breunig has 3 but 2 of them were in the 1980s, with his first not coming until 1979, Harris’ last season. So it doesn’t appear that LBs works as an excuse. Regardless, even a drooling moron like you who knows nothing about football would have to acknowledge that the secondary has more impact on passing stats than LBs do. Remember, the gap between Dallas and Oakland isn’t small. It’s huuuge. The Harris Cowboys were much better than the Oakland Raiders. That was also true on run defense, btw, though I’ll only invest time posting those stats if you want to challenge me on this. Harris was a great, athletic coverage guy and run stopper. I’ve never seen him make the sort of business decision that Tatum did after being trucked by Larry Csonka a few times. I understand it stings you to read that, but that’s no excuse for your girlish retort of trying to pretend Harris did that too by citing some game you haven’t even seen with an aberrational box score. You said: “And, oh, by the way, how in the Hell is a 28-13 beatdown “relatively close?” It was a lot closer than the 1976 Raiders’ 48-17 beat down by the Patriots, LMFAO! You said: “As for the ’76 New England blowout on the Raiders: Hey, numbskull? Why are you being a lying coward and leaving out the Raiders-Pats rematch in the ’76 playoffs?” I was hoping you’d be stupid enough to bring that up, you cowardly wuss. Rematches are awesome. The Cowboys didn’t get a rematch against the Steelers in 1977. If they had gotten one, they’d have had a lot less ground to make up than the Raiders did, lol. You talking about the 1977 Steelers/Raiders game: “The previous week the Steelers opened the season with a 27-0 shutout vs the 49ers while the Raiders also opened with a shutout (24-0 vs. Chargers), so it was a matchup of unbeaten, unscored upon teams” LOL! The “previous week” was week #1, you disingenuous buffoon, and the 49ers sucked. They opened 0-5. My point was completely correct. The Steelers started off badly, opening up 4-4. The Oilers beat them worse than the Raiders did. So did the Broncos. Things changed halfway through the season, and Pittsburgh finished 5-1 to make the playoffs. The Cowboys played them when they were better and Dallas was already in a lull, having lost to the Cardinals the week before. The Cowboys then snapped out of it and were a very different team as they peaked in the playoffs. You can’t claim a 1980 Super Bowl rematch between Dallas and Oakland would have been different without allowing for that same possibility between Dallas and Pittsburgh in 1977. At least not if one possesses an ounce or more of intellectual integrity, so maybe YOU would, lol! You said: “Luck Raiders scheduling?” The Raiders had just played the Steelers in Pittsburgh in the AFC title game the previous year” Because Pittsburgh EARNED home field advantage, dimwit. The Raiders didn’t earn the right to host the Steelers in the regular season. You: “and the last regular season matchup between the two teams was in Pittsburgh, dumbass!” Two years earlier? Who cares? And that year the Raiders lost at home to the Steelers in the playoffs by double digits, lol. My point is that home teams traditionally have a measurable advantage (Vegas often puts it around 3 points, which just happens to be the margin of the 1976 opener), the games you’ve cherry-picked to boast about most have mostly been played at Oakland. For some reason both the 1974 and 1980 games against the Cowboys were at Oakland, though Dallas managed to win the combined point differential anyway. I said: “Where your team needed a comeback” You said: “I’MA LUUUV this one: Something Staubach could NEVER do” It’s worth a mention since you’re supposed to be defending your defense, and they weren’t chiefly responsible for winning that game. Heck, while Staubach is famous for comeback wins, most of them didn’t involve the defense having given up huge scores. The Raiders’ defense was a liability, but Doomsday was an asset. As for the Steelers games, the best possible comparison you could have made, your only hope, it’s sad that you’re still wallowing in that after I’ve shown that you even lose with that meaningless, cherry-picked opponent. The Cowboys played better against the Steelers than the Raiders did in years when they were a true common opponent (they played both teams), and the Raiders only played the Steelers once after Stallworth (whom you’ve been obsessed with) became a full starter. Oakland didn’t play the Steelers at all in 1978 or 1979, after the chuck rule changed and when Pittsburgh’s offense was at its best. That Raiders winning streak against Pittsburgh came mostly in the three games in 1976 and 1977 when the Steelers were between Super Bowl runs and not as good. It’s misleading. Like I said, lucky Raiders scheduling. Now what was your excuse for the biggest common opponent of the decade, the 1977 Broncos, beating down the Raiders twice (and the Steelers twice) while getting crushed by the Cowboys twice? You’ve gotten your ass kicked again, Joseph. • Joseph Wright May 1, 2017 Some more lies from Rasputin: 1)”These guys (Hendricks, Villapiano) both played throughout Tatum’s career at Oakland.” LIE! Tatum only had the benefit of Hendricks for the last four years of his time with the Raiders. Ken Stabler’s commentary on Tatum and Villapiano. “Intimidation was his game, and Jack was the champion. His footsteps broke up as many or more passes than he did.” An obvious compliment to Tatum’s coverage and hitting skills. “In between getting burned, he (Villapiano) just knocked the s— out of people.” Translation: He could hit but he couldn’t cover. The only reason Tatum didn’t join Villapiano as a Pro Bowler in ’76 and years thereafter is because of Chuck Noll’s butthurt whining over the “criminal element” bull and lumping Tatum in with Atkinson’s knockouts of Lynn Swann (the first of which, in the ’75 AFC Title game, was legal, forcing a fumble–that Tatum recovered–and Swann’s removal; Of course, he came back two week’s later to scorch the Harris’ secondary). Noll was infamous for doing this whenever his ’70s Super Bowl and later Steelers teams got physically beaten by another team. Ask Jerry Glanville and the Oilers. Noll NEVER had ANY complaints about Cliff Harris or the Cowboys. That’s because during their Super Bowl run, as Bradshaw accurately says, “We kicked their ass whenever we played ’em.” Tatum was a far more valuable player to the Raiders defense than Villapiano. Villapiano was injured for the year (knee) during that Raiders victory in Pittsburgh in ’77 and the team still made the playoffs and advanced. They were brought in the same year: Tatum was taken in the 1st round, Villapiano in the 2nd. There were 17–SEVENTEEN–rounds that year…and the year before. What round was Cliff Harris taken, Razzie? LOL!!! 2) The whole fallacy of Tatum looking for a place to hide vs. Larry Csonka is ridiculous. Csonka ran over Tatum and any DB who came up on him. However, I ask any reader out there to take a good look at Super Bowl VI. On a two, MAYBE three times that Csonka has the ball, AFTER the defensive line of Lilly, Pugh and the linebackers corral Csonka, you will see Cliff Harris sheepishly and cowardly fall into or roll over the pile to make it “look” like he had a hand in the Csonka tackle. LOL!!! GTFOH!!! With the exception of Csonka, Tatum KO’ed, stuffed, and stunned several fullbacks and tight ends. Harris, not so much. Additionally, Harris always had quality defensive lines in front of him. Any multiple Pro Bowl defensive lineman during Tatum’s Raiders run? Without the Tatum secondary the Raiders pass defense would have ranked at the bottom of the league during those years. Stabler said, “During my time on the Raiders, we couldn’t get any pressure on quarterbacks unless we blitzed.” Additionally, the Snake said, “Generally, on defense, you will find the fiercest and most intimidating players among your lineman or linebackers. The meanest critters on the Raiders in the ’70s were the defensive backs.” The secondary was clearly the glue that carried the front seven. 3) Rasputin can’t comment on games I never saw mainly because he doesn’t know me. I know what I have seen, whether it be in person, live on television or NFL films features. I have seen Charley Taylor’s torching of the Harris-led secondary on NFL films, I was at the L.A. Coliseum when Harold Jackson scorched Harris and Waters–forerunners to the Blackwood brothers–and left them in the dust, I saw the films of Stabler and Blanda exploiting the weak Harris secondary for three TD passes, I watched Swann’s pasting (and Jack Lambert’s body slam–LMFAO!!!) of Harris on National TV in Super Bowl X, I saw the “great coverage” of Harris and the ‘boys on Jackson again on live TV in ’76, I watched Harris trail and get used by Stallworth and Swann on live TV in Super Bowl XIII and watched his career cremation by Vince Ferragamo in the ’79 playoffs on live TV. The ’77 and ’79 thumpings the Steelers put on Harris and the Cowboys weren’t surprising, given what I SAW in SBs X and XIII. Same ol’, same ol’ no doubt. Given Harris’ ‘hide’n’seek” tackling performance vs. Csonka, I’m sure you don’t want to discuss what I saw Harris doing Thanksgiving ’79 vs. Earl Campbell do ya? Of course, the Cowboys lost. At least Tatum gave Earl a big hit and concussion in their ’79 loss. 4) I am not obsessed with John Stallworth. That is a Razzie diversion to try to stop me from bringing up the fact that Tatum’s secondaries shut down the Swann-Stallworth duo while Harris’ secondaries regularly got FLAMED by them, records falling in the process. However, even if I am (and I’m not), better to be “obsessed” with a Hall of Famer (Stallworth) than also-ran, last-minute-because-we-can’t-find-anyone-else-to-play Pro Bowlers (Mike Boryla; Haven Moses). 5) “Rematches are awesome. The Cowboys didn’t get a rematch against the Steelers in 1977. If they had gotten one, they’d have had a lot less ground to make up than the Raiders did, lol.” The Cowboys got the rematch with the Steelers in 1978 (Super Bowl XIII)–they lost. Dallas got a rematch vs. the Steelers in 1979–they lost AGAIN! Once the Steelers got Swann and Stallworth, the Cowboys were no match for the Steelers while the Raiders beat them in two-thirds of those matchups. So let’s do the math: The Raiders lost to the Patriots 48-17, a 31-point drubbing. The Raiders beat them in the playoff rematch. The Cowboys lost to the Steelers in SB X (’75 season), 21-17–minus-4. Lost to Pittsburgh again in ’77, 28-13–minus-15. Lost to Pittsburgh in SBXIII(’78 season), 35-31–minus-4. Another pimp-slapping again in ’79, 14-3–minus-11. That’s minus-34, readers. Cowboys have more ground to make up on the Super Bowl Steelers of the ’70s than the Raiders had to make up on the Patriots. Which brings us to yet another question for Razzie to answer: Which is worse: Losing by 31 then wasting that same team the next time you see them (whether it’s in-season or the next season–Raiders vs. Patriots) or getting swatted aside EVERY SINGLE time you face an opponent (Cowboys vs. Steelers from ’75-’79)? Readers aren’t buying your “fluky losses” excuse, Razzie. The Cowboys were the Steelers chumps from ’75-79. Back to where you belong, junior. • Rasputin May 2, 2017 Are you a Steelers fan or a Raiders fan? Either way your repetition is getting boring. Tatum got to play with Ted Hendricks and/or Phil Villapiano every year of his career, but apparently you ARE saying that the Dallas LBs were better than the Raiders LBs. I’ll remember you conceded that if the topic of LB comparisons ever pops up (oh look whom this page is about!). Regardless, you’re just tossing out the Raiders supposedly having bad LBs (a HoFer and 4 time Pro Bowler, LOL!) blindly as an excuse for the Raiders’ terrible pass defense stats (their rankings were actually worse when both LBs were playing). You haven’t analyzed where those passing yards came from. If you think dump off passes to RBs alone are enough to skew an elite pass defense down to repeated 20-something rankings then you’re an even bigger moron than you’ve already proven yourself to be. You don’t know anything about football, but more likely you’re just lying again. It’s what you do. Heck, the Raiders ran a 3-4, which if anything schematically gave offenses not used to playing against it fits in the passing game. It probably accounts for their high number of interceptions (with or without Tatum), Oakland’s one bright spot. Lack of player talent, however, mitigated that advantage enough that the Raiders were routinely torched in the 1970s. The Tatum pass defense was the weakness of the entire team. But it’s nice that his teammate praised him, lol. It doesn’t mean much, but it was nice of him. You also keep ignoring the fact that the Dallas pass defense dropped from elite to mid-pack without Cliff Harris despite them having the same line (and getting Too Tall and Waters back). That otherwise puzzling drop makes sense when you consider that Cliff Harris was rightly voted as the best free safety of the 1970s. So you’re saying that against the Cowboys Larry Csonka was already tackled before Cliff Harris got to him, and he threw himself into the pile anyway, lol? Far cry from Tatum putting out ONE(!) hand to make a half hearted, token gesture as Csonka ran past him into the end zone in the AFC Championship game. I’ve never seen Cliff Harris do that, and apparently neither have you or you would have said something. You clearly haven’t seen most of these games or you wouldn’t be trying to blame Harris for Charlie Waters getting torched at CB. Even then Dallas was a lot better on pass defense and overall than the Raiders. The Cowboys didn’t play the Steelers or Raiders enough to form a meaningful sample of games. Your obsession with Stallworth was just a way to weasel out of the 1972 comparison, when the Cowboys kicked the Steelers’ asses (by your logic) while Pittsburgh beat Oakland twice as a true common opponent. Stallworth didn’t become a major factor until near the end of the decade when the Raiders were about done playing them but the Cowboys still had more games to go against them. Oakland mostly played the Steelers in the early to mid decade while the Cowboys mostly played them late in the decade, including two games after the chuck rule change. The Tatum Raiders never played Pittsburgh after the chuck rule change. That things change from year to year is why the rematches I’m talking about are same season ones. Similarly the NFL measures “common opponents” from the ONE SEASON, dimwit. That you lose overall against common opponents and even against the Steelers in common years just makes this beating you’ve received sadder. Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979 Cowboys – 67% Raiders – 57% Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979 Cowboys – 148.1 y/g Raiders – 158.5 y/g Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979 Cowboys – 48% Raiders – 49.4% Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979 Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977 Winning Percentage Cowboys – 33% Raiders – 25% Net Passing Yards Allowed Cowboys – 141.3 y/g Raiders – 170.5 y/g Opponent Completion Percentage Cowboys – 40% Raiders – 49.5% Given this, it’s little wonder that…. Super Bowl Wins With Harris/Tatum As Starters Cowboys – 2 Raiders – 1 Conference Champion Records With Harris/Tatum As Starters Cowboys – 4-2 Raiders – 1-4 Cracking you with that sledgehammer still feels good. Everything I said was true. Now stop being the sniveling coward you are and answer my serious question below about why the Raiders pass defense was so bad, especially (but not exclusively) compared to the Cowboys’. • Joseph Wright May 1, 2017 Can’t let these lie slide: “It’s (Raiders’ opening day 17-point comeback to beat Steelers in ’76) worth a mention since you’re supposed to be defending your defense, and they weren’t chiefly responsible for winning that game. Heck, while Staubach is famous for comeback wins, most of them didn’t involve the defense having given up huge scores.” 1) The Steelers went up 28-14 midway into the fourth quarter. The defense gave Stabler and the offense the three stops they needed to get those two touchdowns and the winning field goal. A great football comeback doesn’t happen without timely defense. But, then again, Razzie doesn’t know football. 2) “That Raiders winning streak against Pittsburgh came mostly in the three games in 1976 and 1977 when the Steelers were between Super Bowl runs and not as good. It’s misleading. Like I said, lucky Raiders scheduling.” Prior to the ’76 season opener the Steelers had won Super Bowl X (Swann torching the Cliff Harris’ secondary for a record-161 receiving yards and a TD in the process). The raiders beat them. Prior to that season’s AFC Title game the Steel Curtain Defense had ignited a 10-game winning streak, allowing only 35 points in that span. Though Franco and Bleier were out hurt (which prompted Noll to come out with a two-tight end, one back offense on their first offensive play; that’s why Stallworth didn’t start), The Steelers stll had a healthy trio of Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth and there were no question marks on defense. The Raiders rolled over the Steel Curtain defense, 24-7. Additionally, Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth were non factors. Swann played the whole game. Once again, with everyone (Franco and Rocky) in place the Raiders rolled over them in Pittsburgh (so much for the “lucky” Raiders scheduling garbage). Oh, BTW, Razzie. The kicker you harped on, Roy Gerela, was healthy, too. SMH. (What is is with Cliff Harris and now you with this kicker?) “Between Super Bowls and not as good?” They sure kicked the Cowboys asses in ’77 AND the rematch in Super Bowl XIII. I thought I read somewhere that the ’78 Cowboys were better than the ’78 Steelers. LMFAO!!! • Rasputin May 2, 2017 Hint – You disagreeing with one of my opinions doesn’t make that opinion a “lie”, moron. An example of a lie is you claiming it was Thomas Henderson rather than Cliff Harris who knocked Rick Upchurch out in SB XII, you asserting that Lou Groza was just a kicker and not a tackle, you stating that the “Super Bowl Steelers” played the Cowboys 4 times from 1974-1979, or you labeling my accurate comments “lies”. You said: “The defense gave Stabler and the offense the three stops they needed to get those two touchdowns and the winning field goal.” It’s nice they got those THREE stops isn’t it, LMFAO? You said: “Prior to the ’76 season opener the Steelers had won Super Bowl X (Swann torching the Cliff Harris’ secondary for a record-161 receiving yards and a TD in the process). The raiders beat them.” The 1975 Steelers torched and beat the Raiders worse they than “torched” Dallas, moron, and in consecutive games. Your hero Stallworth even started against Dallas, though he had a much better game against Oakland off the bench. The Cowboys didn’t get to play the Steelers in 1976, when Pittsburgh was a walking MASH unit. You said: “Though Franco and Bleier were out hurt” LOL! Glad you finally acknowledged the two 1,000 yard backs you went out of your way to hype up the 1976 Steelers as having were out for the playoff game against Oakland. You even denied Pittsburgh had any “notable injur(ies)”. The classy thing would be for you to thank me educating you otherwise. Unless, of course, your earlier claim was just another lie you got nailed on. Which was it? Be honest. The Steelers all but lost that game before it even started. You’ve lost this debate even worse. • Joseph Wright May 6, 2017 Why did Swann torch the Harris-led secondary but failed to torch the Raiders secondary two weeks earlier? In 1975–pre-chuck rule? And then in the ’76 season opener, the ’76 AFC Title game (Swann was healthy and was needed to step up; Franco and Bleier weren’t playing), and the ’77 regular season rematch with Franco and Bleier back in the line up? In matchups with Tatum and the Raiders he was a relative non-factor but vs. Harris-led secondaries he dominated without fear. In games vs. Swann and Stallworth, Tatum was 4-2. Harris never won a game against them nor did he cut into the effectiveness of either one really. And as far as the so-called AFC title game “torching” of the Tatum secondary vs. the true torching of the Harris secondary in SB X (it was only a six-yard difference: 215-209) I’ll take the quality over the quantity. Bradshaw needed 15 completions to reach 215 vs Tatum’s bunch. He only needed NINE to reach 209 vs. Harris’ secondary. He had one TD pass vs. the Tatum secondary (who was minus HOFer Willie Brown–Stallworth made the touchdown on Neal Colzie) with 3 INTs. We know what he did to the Harris secondary two weeks later. LOL!!! • Rasputin May 6, 2017 Steelers Versus Opponents, 1975 Playoffs Margin Of Victory Raiders – 6 points Cowboys – 4 points Net Passing Yards Raiders – 215 Cowboys – 190 Completion Percentage Raiders – 60% Cowboys – 47% Sure the Raiders had a couple of interceptions and gave up 1 passing TD instead of 2, but the Cowboys played the Steelers closer, gave up fewer passing yards, and held Pittsburgh to 47% completion instead of 60%. This isn’t really an example to bolster your case is it? You’re behaving kind of desperate aren’t you? Be honest. And you never have explained why we should care about a WR’s individual stats rather than a team’s overall passing stats in this debate. We’re discussing safeties, not some CB who’s responsible for covering a particular WR all day. You said: “the ’76 AFC Title game (Swann was healthy and was needed to step up; Franco and Bleier weren’t playing)” Exactly. Did you not know that before I told you their two star 1,000 yard backs were out or were you simply lying when you said that Bradshaw was the only notable injury? Which was it? Of course it’s a lot easier to defense the passing game when you don’t have to worry about the running threat. Like I said, the Steelers went into that game pretty much knowing they had already lost. Lucky for Raiders fans, since that’s the ONLY Super Bowl your team even made it to that decade. What’s it like being a fan of a team that only made it to 1 Super Bowl in the entire 1970s? It’s not like that was a throwaway decade the way the 1980s were for the Cowboys either. The 70s are supposed to be the Raiders’ glory period; “Autumn Wind” and all that. Snake, Tatum, Madden, Hendricks, Biletnikoff, etc.. The birth of the mystique. Raiders fans seem to identify their team’s “greatness” more with that period than with the couple of Jim Plunkett Super Bowls in the 1980s, and understandably so since the 1976 Raiders were clearly the best team in the franchise’s history. And yet you just made it to that one Super Bowl, in a year were you got to step over a crippled Steelers team to do it. How does that make you feel? : ) You said: “and the ’77 regular season rematch with Franco and Bleier back in the line up?” You mean when the Steelers started off a terrible 4-4 and lost worse to the Oilers, Colts, and Broncos than they did to the Raiders (it was a one digit game)? Rocky Bleier only rushed for 465 yards that year. Remember, in the NFL things change a lot from season to season. In 1977 the Broncos were the AFC team to beat. They crushed the Steelers by double digits twice and pounded your Raiders twice. Why did Oakland fail so miserably against the Craig Morton-led Broncos that the Cliff Harris Cowboys easily dispatched twice? PS – Thanks for all the replies. In case you haven’t noticed this article has vaulted up to the #2 spot in that “Most Commented” window at the bottom of the page. People may not be reading this exchange, but they’re a lot more likely to at least see the headline now, which serves my interests fine. You’ve been a useful punching bag and prop, chump. • Rasputin April 26, 2017 BTW, you know who held the Super Bowl passing record prior to SB XIII? It was the Vikings, who threw for 282 yards against the Raiders in SB XI, LMFAO. In craven fashion you’ve also overlooked the fact that the chuck rule was changed in 1978, opening up the passing game. The 1978 SB XIII record didn’t last long. Pittsburgh passed for more yards against the Rams the very next year. Individual and team records would fall pretty much every year for a while. The Tatum Raiders never played the Steelers after the chuck rule changed, so there’s no basis for a comparison on that. The rule change was partly motivated by the dominance of the Cowboys’ Doomsday defense, including against the 1977 Broncos, who had torched Tatum’s Oakland for 217 yards but were held to only 35 yards against Harris’ Dallas in the Super Bowl. • Joseph wright April 26, 2017 This is great. More evidence that Rasputin is a coward plus more lies of his to feast on and exploit. First, the lies: 1) Bradshaw did not break the record he established against Harris’ secondary the next year in Super Bowl XIV. He threw for 318 yards (and a SB-record 4 TD passes) vs. the slow, weak, overrated Harris-led secondary. No, no, no. Net passing yards is a sleazy way that Razzie uses to try to clean up Cliff Harris’ pitiful performances. Net passing yards (i.e., subtracting yards lost by sacks from a passer’s passing yard total. Stupid stat. A 20-yard sack doesn’t eliminate the fact that a QB threw the game-winning 20-yd. TD pass…does it, dumbass?) is the work of the defensive line and blitzing linebackers, not the secondary. Bradshaw’s 318-yard blazing of the Harris’ secondary stood until 1984. In that Super Bowl, Joe Montana threw for 331 yards. Ironically, he accomplished this against the exact Harris-Waters safety cloned tandem, the Blackwood brothers. 2) The Vikings “record” performance in Super Bowl XI was distortedly enhanced by the garbage time “heroics” of Viking back-up QB Bob Lee who–AFTER Tatum and at lest four other Raider starters were on the sidelines enjoying the inevitable championship–completed 7-9 passes for 81 yards and a TD. BTW, as he entered the game the Raiders were leading 32-7. This is after–with Tatum and the full defensive starting lineup–the Vikings Hall of Fame starting Fran Tarkenton was held to 17-35 passing for 206 yards and one TD pass with two interceptions. Those 206 yards were less than the 209 passing yards given up in the previous Super Bowl by–oh, how would we have guessed–the CLIFF HARRIS-LED Cowboys secondary vs. Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw only required 19 attempts and, even better, only needed NINE completions. Where was Cliff Harris and all this GREAT coverage we keep reading about? LMFAO!!!! Irony of ironies, readers, when Montana broke Bradshaw’s record of 318 yards passing against the Harris-Waters clone–the Blackwoods–the losing QB passed for 318. Razzie, are you gonna say Ronnie Lott (who has repeatedly said he was inspired by Jack Tatum) and his secondary played poorly vs. Dan Marino as you are trying unsuccessfully to prove Tatum and his secondary played poorly vs. the Vikings? You are a fool. LOL!!! 3) “In craven fashion you’ve also overlooked the fact that the chuck rule was changed in 1978, opening up the passing game…The rule change was partly motivated by the dominance of the Cowboys’ Doomsday defense…” LMAO!!! LOL!!! Let me help you out, junior. The rule was put in to attempt to eliminate effectiveness of the Raiders Defense whose safeties Tatum and Atkinson would successfully bump receivers off course. Swann was the main guy crying for the rule change. Off course, the Steelers took credit for it and called it the “Mel Blount Rule.” He stole his bump-and-run tactics from Raiders Hall of Famer Willie Brown. However, you baited your own trap with this lie. If the rule went into effect in 1978, why did Lynn Swann go crazy setting a Super Bowl record with 161–161!!!–receiving yards in January of 1976 (We’ll get into the playoff torchings by Charley Taylor and Harold Jackson on Harris-led secondaries at another time) ? 4) “Individual and team records (in Super Bowls) would fall pretty much every year for a while.” Not true. Bradshaw’s yardage torching (318, let’s keep it real) of the Harris-led secondary stood for six solid years. Swann’s Super Bowl X yardage record stood for 12 years. Stallworth’s 115-yd, 2 TD half stood for nine years. Bradshaw’s 4 TD passes in a game were tied nine years later and broken 11 years later. I just kicked your ass. But we cannot go forward, Razzie, until you courageously (if you have it in you) answer this simple question: Why was the Tatum-led secondary SO much more successful vs. Swann and Stallworth while the supposedly “better” Harris-led secondary saw records fall–BIG TIME (Swann’s 161 yards-SB X; Stallworth’s 115 yards in one half and record-tying 75-yd TD with Harris trailing-SB XIII;Bradshaw-first-ever 300-yd SB passing game and SB-record 4 TD passes-SB XIII)–against Swann and Stallworth? • Rasputin April 26, 2017 1. That’s not a “lie”, little Joey. You have yet to quote a single false claim I’ve made, let alone a “lie”, while I’ve posted lots of your lies. I’ve been clear all along that I was using team stats, which are given as net passing yards. You’ve used team stats too. As for whether it’s appropriate, not knowing much about football, I guess you’ve never heard of a coverage sack. Regardless, team stats are a better indicator than cherry-picking individual performance as you’re trying to do because the safeties in question are playing against TEAMS, not one guy, not that the cherry-picking helps your case. Tarkenton still torched Tatum’s Raiders for 205 yards (his biggest playoff total EVER) and Craig Morton torched Oakland for 229 yards in 1977, HIS BIGGEST EVER PLAYOFF TOTAL TOO, while the Cowboys held him to 39 yards in his next game, the Super Bowl. That was all PRE CHUCK RULE CHANGE. Why did Tatum’s secondary surrender more yards to Craig Morton and Fran Tarkenton than any other team ever did in the playoffs, little Joey? 2. More of the “garbage time” excuse from you. Yawn. Dallas faced a lot more of it. Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths) Cowboys: 25.9–10.5; +15.4 point/game margin Raiders: 29.9–20.1; +9.8 point/game margin Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979 Cowboys – 8 Raiders – 3 And Dallas still did better than Oakland. Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979 Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game Opponent Completion Percentage, Playoffs 1971-1979 Cowboys (18 games) – 47.7% Raiders (12 games) – 50.3% Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979 Cowboys (18 games) – 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game Raiders (12 games) – 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game The bottom line is that Tatum’s secondary performed poorly compared to Harris’ secondary. Period. 3. You on the 1978 chuck rule change I brought up: “The rule was put in to attempt to eliminate effectiveness of the Raiders Defense whose safeties Tatum and Atkinson would successfully bump receivers off course.” LOL! Pass Defense League Ranking 1976 Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd 1977 Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd Nope. You said: “If the rule went into effect in 1978, why did Lynn Swann go crazy setting a Super Bowl record with 161–161!!!–receiving yards in January of 1976” You mean in the 1975 playoffs? Steelers’ Team Passing Yards Versus Opponents, 1975 Opponents Raiders – 215 yards Cowboys – 190 yards LOL! You really are a faceplanting buffoon, little Joey. Stallworth didn’t even start against the Raiders while he did start against the Cowboys, though he caught a TD and almost 4 times as many yards off the bench against Oakland while Dallas shut him down. 4. They weren’t more successful, moron. The Cliff Harris Cowboys were better than the Tatum Raiders in the regular season, in the playoffs, and against common opponents. They were even better against the Steelers in years when Pittsburgh was a common opponent. Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977 Winning Percentage Cowboys – 33% Raiders – 25% Net Passing Yards Allowed Cowboys – 141.3 y/g Raiders – 170.5 y/g Opponent Completion Percentage Cowboys – 40% Raiders – 49.5% See? I’ve kicked your ass again, Joey. The Tatum Raiders never played the Steelers after the chuck rule change. And you didn’t even mention the biggest common opponent, the 1977 Broncos. You completely dodged that, apparently hoping to forget, lol. But I’ll keep reminding you. PS – Have I mentioned that you’re a sniveling, lying, cowardly moron? That keeps beating you up here fun, even if your “arguments” have gotten stale and boring. • Joseph Wright April 27, 2017 If Tatum’s secondary got “torched” (in a 32-14 laugher; you’re an idiot), then was Ronnie Lott’s secondary “torched” by Dan Marino in Super Bowl XIX (a 38-16 laugher)? And why did Lynn Swann light up the Cowboys for a Super Bowl-record 161 yards pre-chuck rule? Watch cowardly Rasputin duck these questions, readers. A clear sign of dishonesty and chicken heartedness. • Rasputin April 27, 2017 Hey, you’re the one hypocritically making a yardage argument, you lying, cowardly moron. Serious question, Joseph: Why did the Tatum pass defense and Raiders overall perform worse than the Harris Cowboys in the regular season, in the playoffs, and against common opponents? • Joseph Wright April 27, 2017 Several receivers torched Harris-led secondaries for 100-yard, multiple TD games. This only happened to a Tatum-led secondary once, the ONLY example you can bring up (Denver’s Haven Moses). Only one time could the ’70s Raiders secondary be fingered for a playoff loss, whereas the Harris Crew was the culprit multiple times. When will you explain that, coward? We’re waiting for a legitimate answer, junior. Weak competition in the ’70s NFC enhanced the Dallas pass defense stats but the real truth was revealed in the Super Bowls. Not one record was broken by a QB or receiver in the playoffs vs. a Tatum secondary. Harris’ secondaries gave up a laundry list of passing and receiving records. Net passing yards aren’t fooling anyone, Razzie. That was the work of Harvey Martin, Bob Lilly, Randy White, Too Tall Jones, and Hollywood Henderson, not “coverage sacks.” LOL!!! GTFOH!! I have been consistent in pointing out individual receiving and passing performances and you constantly, cowardly and deceitfully shift the focus to team stats (the most deceitful attempt being the Vikings’ garbage time “aerial show” of Minnesota backup Bob Lee with Tatum and at least four other Raiders defensive starters on the sidelines enjoying the 32-7 lead they built–you’re pathetic). Well, the problem with that, dumbass, is now your bringing in running backs receiving totals, which is the job of the linebackers, not the secondary. Stay focused, moron. The most serious question that the Cowardly Rasputin has YET to answer is, ONCE AGAIN: Why was the Tatum-led secondary SO much more successful vs. Swann and Stallworth while the supposedly “better” Harris-led secondary saw records fall–BIG TIME (Swann’s 161 yards-SB X; Stallworth’s 115 yards in one half and record-tying 75-yd TD with Harris trailing-SB XIII;Bradshaw-first-ever 300-yd SB passing game and SB-record 4 TD passes-SB XIII)–against Swann and Stallworth? • Rasputin April 27, 2017 Let me get this straight. You’re claiming TOTAL team passing stats over almost a decade of games are irrelevant to comparing safety/secondary quality because they might not tell the whole story, so instead you’re basing everything on a few cherry-picked INDIVIDUAL stats you’ve gleaned from the box scores of games you haven’t watched? Wow. Nope. You can’t even truly convince yourself of that idiocy. For the record my retort to your insane argument is that obviously the safeties in question may not be covering the ONE WR you’re conveniently selecting for mention, and even if they sometimes were that would tell far less of their career stories than the full stats I’ve posted do. I’ve dismantled your Steelers and other cherry-picked diversion attempts all over this thread, but you have yet to answer my question: Why did the Tatum pass defense and Raiders overall perform worse than the Harris Cowboys in the regular season, in the playoffs, and against common opponents? Take a break from being the squirming, cowardly moron you are and take an honest stab at it. The closest you’ve come so far is claiming Dallas performed better because of its defensive line. While its line (and whole team) was great, your hypothesis fails under scrutiny: 1976 Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd 1977 Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd 1978 Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th 1979 Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st ————- 1980 Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th The 1980 Cowboys had the same defensive line as the previous years. In fact they got back Too Tall Jones and Pro Bowl safety Charlie Waters who had both missed the 1979 season. Note that Dallas still ranked #3 in pass defense in 1979 without those guys but with Harris while dropping to #16 in 1980 with those guys and without Harris. So that’s not it. Once you also mentioned Staubach retiring, but the Dallas offense ranked #1 in 1980, so that’s not it either. You also claimed Dallas supposedly faced easier competition, which has been completely debunked by comparing the superior NFC East with the weak AFC West, and wouldn’t explain why the Cowboys performed better against common opponents than the Raiders or why the Raiders pass defense performed worse among most other teams in the league too while Dallas ranked among the best. • Joseph Wright April 28, 2017 Enough with your lies and cowardly nonsense. I watched Lynn Swann and John Stallworth make a mockery of Cliff Harris-anchored secondaries. The whole “you never watched the games” crap is a lie and a childish, cowardly attempt to hide the fact that Harris just didn’t have the athletic skills or hitting power to combat or intimidate them, thereby shutting them down. The best common opponent the Raiders and the Cowboys have to draw from is the Steelers because they were the ’70s best football team. From ’74 through the end of the decade, Pittsburgh was the standard. The only way to beat them was to be physical with them on offense and on defense–something the Tatum Raiders could do and the Harris Cowboys could NOT. The Raiders-Steelers rivalry started in ’72 with the Immaculate Reception game (A true controversial outcome; not like your butthurt Super Bowl XIII whining–no one outside of Dallas sees the “controversy”: The best team won) and concluded in ’77. The teams played nine games, with the Raiders winning the last three straight. The first meaningful ’70s matchup the Cowboys and Steelers had was Super Bowl X. It could be accurately stated that Cliff Harris lost the game for the Cowboys. He foolishly called out Lynn Swann the two weeks before the game and Swann scorched the Harris-led secondary; He physically taunts Steelers kicker Roy Gerela (How weak is that? Taunting a…KICKER?!!?) leading to his getting body-slammed by Jack Lambert (LMFAO!!!) and compelling the already stifling Steelers defense to turn it up several more notches. Cliff Harris: What a dumbass. The Steelers pimp-slapped the Cowboys in Super Bowl X, KO’ed them in ’77, bombed that overrated Harris-led secondary in Super Bowl XIII (no controversy there), and finally, I guess with the Cowboys saying, “Do you want to hit us some more?” kicked them to the curb in ’79. Four straight losses. Razzie, get used to it. None of these were flukes. Not like the lightening-in-a-bottle ’77 Broncos that you cling to. Razzie, it’s only cherry-picking when you only have one or two. I have SEVERAL Harris’ torchings in the playoffs and regular season that you keep ducking. The ’77 AFC Title game is the ONLY post-season torching a Tatum-led secondary was guilty of. You can’t show me another time a receiver had a 100-yd., multiple TD-catch game vs Tatum’s secondaries. You also can’t show me another loss when a Tatum-led secondary gave up 200+ yards and multiple TD passes to a QB in one game. The ’77 AFC title game is the only cherry you have. I have multiple times Harris has stumbled on the big stage leading to a Dallas defeat. Some more lies from Raspitin, readers: “You…wouldn’t explain why the Cowboys performed better against common opponents than the Raiders…” What common opponents (’70s) are we talking about? The ’70s Raiders beat Pittsburgh multiple times (Dallas didn’t); They were undefeated vs Cardinals, Redskins, and Eagles (Dallas wasn’t); And they beat the Cowboys on National Primetime TV, with Tatum’s secondary holding Staubach under 50 percent passing while keeping Drew Pearson, Golden Richards and Billy Joe DuPree–all SB X starters–out of the endzone. The Raiders never lost to a playoff rival (regular season/postseason) four straight times. That’s inexcusable. It was a regular occurrence from ’75 on: Another ass-whippin’ at the hands of the Steelers by the Dallas Cowboys. Just to show nothing had changed, Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth and Lambert knocked ’em in their place again–in Dallas in ’82 on Monday Night Football! As Lambert said that night, “…that’ll cool your ass off.” And for the record, Tatum was 12-6-1 vs the Broncos and won the last two straight vs. Craig Morton and Haven Moses in ’79. Since I had to painfully and truthfully (someone had to do it) establish that the slow, scrawny, balding Harris was no match or problem athletically or physically for Swann and Stallworth as Tatum was (that, everybody, is the honest, courageous answer to why Tatum’s secondary did a better job vs. Swann and Stallworth than Harris’ secondary) let’s move on to the next question: What was up with that ’73 (1973!!!) 238-yd., 4TD receiving game by the Rams Harold Jackson against the Harris-led secondary? Charley Taylor smoked ’em and knocked Dallas out of the Playoffs (way to defend your crown, chumps!!) and now, less than a year later, they get smoked for a 200-yard RECEIVING game? In 1973?!?!? NEVER happened to a Tatum-anchored secondary–pre- or post-1978. And a ONE hundred yard game by a receiver was monumental in that era, but 238–on seven catches–with four TDs? YEEESH!!! Harold Jackson was a clone of Cliff Branch. How would the Cowboys handle Branch? Harris already showed he was incapable of providing deep help for Taylor, Jackson, Swann and Stallworth. • Rasputin April 28, 2017 Your diversionary drivel (mostly about games you haven’t seen) has already been dealt with and debunked. Again, take a break from being the cowardly, lying, moron you are Joseph Wright, and answer this question: Why did the Tatum pass defense and Raiders overall perform worse than the Harris Cowboys in the regular season, in the playoffs, and against common opponents? Of course by “common opponents” I’m referring to ALL common opponents combined, as the stats I’ve generously provided for you all over this thread show. Do you at least acknowledge that the Tatum Raiders did perform worse overall than the Harris Cowboys in the yardage/completion percentage/winning percentage stats I provided, or are you suffering a psychotic break from reality? • Rasputin April 27, 2017 Should clarify that the 1980 Cowboys had the #1 scoring offense, but they still ranked #9 in total offense. • Joseph Wright April 28, 2017 Yeah, and that got their asses kicked by the Eagles who got their asses kicked by the Raiders. Had the Cowboys made SB XV, the Raiders would have wasted them, just like the ’84 Steelers would have lost to the Niners in SB XIX, just like the ’85 Dolphins would have lost to the ’85 Bears in SB XX. Yawn. I don’t fear any team that gives up 40 points AND loses to Marc Wilson at home on National TV. The Raiders were 3-1 vs. Landry’s Cowboys. What else needs to be said? • Rasputin April 28, 2017 You mean after the 1980 Cowboys kicked the 1980 Raiders’ asses, lol? Who cares what the “Landry” record was, doofus? They almost never played in Landry’s 29 years. The Harris Cowboys never played the Raiders except for that one throwaway game at the end of their worst season of the decade. I only brought up the 1980 victory over the Super Bowl Raiders to expose your hypocrisy in attaching way more meaning to a single cherry-picked game than it deserves. Maybe the 1980 Raiders would have won a rematch and maybe they wouldn’t. But by similar logic I think the 1977 Cowboys would have had a better chance of beating the Steelers in a rematch. The Cowboys almost beat Pittsburgh in 1978. The Steelers weren’t as good in 1977 and Dallas was better than it was in 1978, when it was riddled with various injuries, ranking #1 in both offense and defense in 1977 and being particularly great when peaking during the playoffs. • Joseph Wright April 28, 2017 More Cowboys excuses. Raiders vs. Landry’s Cowboys: 3-1. Super Bowl Steelers vs. Cowboys: 4-0. LMAO!!! • Rasputin April 28, 2017 The Cowboys beat the Steelers in Super Bowl XXX. Does Joseph Wright ever get tired of his serial lying? PS – Super Bowl Wins Cowboys – 5 Raiders – 3 • Joseph Wright May 1, 2017 Did I have to clarify by saying “Landry’s Cowboys,” numbskull? Or should I have said the Super Bowl ’70s Steelers (1974-79)? You knew what I was talking about, coward. • Rasputin May 1, 2017 In their 1970s Super Bowl years the Steelers only played the Cowboys 3 times, so either you’re lying again or your crappy counting skills are rearing their head once more. • Joseph Wright May 5, 2017 In the Steelers ’70s Super Bowl era they mopped the floor with the Cowboys four times: Super Bowl X (21-17) 1977 (28-13) Super Bowl XIII (35-31) 1979 (14-3) Tell me, readers does that look like three to you? Or is Razzie’s counting skills still in the remedial level? Or, typical of a Cowboys fan, is he in denial? Those pimp-slappings are permanent history. As Bradshaw said, “Get used to it. Can’t change it.” • Rasputin May 5, 2017 The 1977 Steelers weren’t a Super Bowl team, you lying moron. Now, like the weasel you are, you’re backtracking to using the word “era”. Well why does the 1972 beatdown of the Steelers by the Cowboys not count as part of the same “era”, lol? They had a better team and made it further in the playoffs in 1972 than in 1977. Never mind. Doesn’t matter. Here’s the pertinent bottom line: Cliff Harris and Jack Tatum Era (1971-1979) Super Bowl Wins Cowboys – 2 Raiders – 1 Conference Championship Wins Cowboys – 4 Raiders – 1 YOU’VE just been pimp-slapped, Joey. • Joseph Wright May 12, 2017 The ’72 Steelers are nowhere close to the ’77 Steelers. You’re an idiot. When the Raiders beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh in ’77 you say the Steelers weren’t a good team, then when I say the ’77 Steelers beat the Cowboys you say there WERE a good team. GTFOH, lying coward!! • Rasputin May 12, 2017 You said:”The ’72 Steelers are nowhere close to the ’77 Steelers.” 1972 Steelers – 11-3 record, scored 24.5 p/g, allowed 12.5 p/g, made it to the conference championship (lost by 4 to eventual champion Miami) 1977 Steelers – 9-5 record, scored 20.2 p/g, allowed 17.4 p/g, one and done in the playoffs (lost to Denver by 13) “Nowhere close”, huh? Maybe, but if that’s true it’s because the 1972 team, not the 1977 team, was a lot better. Also remember the 1972 Steelers kicked the Raiders’ asses twice and got beat by the Cowboys. And I said the 1977 Steelers started terribly (when they played Oakland), going 4-4 the first 8 weeks, and improved dramatically over the second half of the season (when they played Dallas), finishing 5-1, liar. You run off crying for a week and come simpering back with this lame crap, you cowardly moron? Pathetic, Joseph Wright. • Joseph Wright May 13, 2017 It’s absolutely asinine to say that the ’72 Steelers (No Swann, No Stallworth, No Jack Lambert–to bodyslam Cliff Harris sorry, scrawny ass, Mel Blount still developing) were better than the ’77 Steelers. If the ’77 Steelers were so bad why did they kick the Cowboys ass so soundly that same year? And if you are going to cowardly flip-flop and say they were good, then the Raiders beat them that same year. Squirm, chicken. Squirm • Rasputin May 13, 2017 I just answered that above, you lying, cowardly moron. Read what I post. And there was no “body slam”. Lambert came up BEHIND Harris and threw him down. So what? Harris popped up immediately and began jawing with the much bigger MLB. He wasn’t intimidated at all. That’s a far cry from Tatum making a business decision to half-heartedly reach out with one hand while Larry Csonka ran by him into the end zone because the Raiders safety had been trucked a few times and wanted no more of it. • Joseph Wright May 13, 2017 Now we KNOW you’re lying! The film doesn’t lie. Lambert body slams Harris and Jethro Pugh immediately pulls Harris away for Harris’ protection. As he’s being pulled away (protected, really–let’s be truthful), Harris was no doubt saying, “You’re lucky he’s holding me back!” LOL!!! GTFOH!!! Lambert would have kicked Harris ass! Cliff wanted no part of Lambert. What was Harris thinking, physically bullying a…KICKER? Combine that with foolishly calling out Lynn Swann the week before the game, Cliff Harris clearly lost Super Bowl X for the Cowboys. As for the Cowboys getting “screwed” in Super Bowls V and XIII (who outside of Dallas really believes that crap?), here are some suggestions: A) Duane Thomas should have held on to the ball B) Maybe Super Bowl “MVP” (that’s right, quotes) Chuck Howley should have forced a fumble of his own like Mike Curtis (the REAL Super Bowl V MVP) did C) The pass interference call on Bennie Barnes vs. Swann put the ball on the Dallas 22. Hold Pittsburgh to a field goal D) Don’t let Franco go 22 yards for a TD E) Forget about Charlie Waters getting blocked by the official. Where was the Cowboys’ defensive line on that play? Where were the Dallas LBs? Where was…”THE BEST FREE SAFETY OF THE 70s?” Harris is nowhere to be seen in that clip! Tatum stuffed Franco regularly, Tatum is in films making tackles on Csonka, Tatum head-butted Earl Campbell at the goalline and knocked him woozy. Where was Cliff Harris on Franco’s 22-yd TD in SB XIII? Is running for a place to hide (like he did vs. Csonka in SB VI; it’s on tape, film, AND YouTube) one of those Cliff Harris “intangibles” you harped on earlier? Like Harris did on Thanksgiving 1979 vs. Earl Campbell? That’s on tape and film, too. LMFAO!!! • Rasputin May 13, 2017 You’re lying about that footage like you did about Super Bowl XII. Charging someone from behind and knocking them down isn’t a “body slam”. It’s a cheap shot. A body slam is lifting someone off the ground into the air and them slamming them down hard. If you knew anything about fighting you’d know that. And it wouldn’t surprise me if the scrappy Harris would have kicked Lambert’s ass. They were separated because players didn’t want to get a flag. If you had seriously played football you’d know that too. Also, Harris wasn’t physically abusing the Steelers kicker. He was sarcastically praising him after the miss, a taunt. The Steelers routinely did similar and far worse taunts. Don’t get me started on the classless Raiders, lol. Your beloved Steelers appropriately referred to the Raiders, the team you used to be a fan of before I humiliated you in this debate, as a “criminal element”. The Steelers threw for more passing yards and won against Oakland by more points the previous game than they did against Dallas in Super Bowl X. You lose again. You said: “As for the Cowboys getting “screwed” in Super Bowls V…(who outside of Dallas really believes that crap?)” The Baltimore Sun for one (the Cowboys’ opponent was the Baltimore Colts), as I spoonfed you earlier, halfwit. Search for “At bottom of 22-year pile, ex-Cowboy still insists he, not Colts, had fumble” and click on the top article that pops up for a Baltimore writer agreeing that the Cowboys got robbed. He’s unapologetically happy about it because he feels the Colts had back luck in some previous years against other teams, but he acknowledges the truth and that the Cowboys would have won without that blown call by the officials. As for the SB XIII play, the safeties had different, prearranged responsibilities, moron. That’s how football plays work. So coward, why did the Raiders go a dismal 1-4 in conference championship games while the Cowboys went 4-2? Why did the Tatum Raiders only win 1 Super Bowl while the Harris Cowboys won 2? • Joseph Wright May 15, 2017 “A body slam is lifting someone off the ground into the air and them slamming them down hard.” Uh…Hello? That’s EXACTLY what Lambert does to Harris on the Super Bowl X highlight film. I knew you were dumb, Razzie, but I didn’t know you had eyesight problems, too. SMH. And, no, Harris wanted NO PART of Lambert and the fact is, Lambert would whip Cliff Harris’ ass every day of the week. As for the “criminal element” crying from Chuck Noll, it was ridiculous. He was mad because the Raiders outhit the Steelers in the ’76 season opener and Atkinson put Swann out for the second consecutive matchup (the first of which was a legal hit; Tatum recovered Swann’s fumble) with a concussion. When the two parties went to court, Atkinson’s attorney accurately pointed out that if the Raiders (specifically, Atkinson and Tatum) were criminals then what about Mel Blount’s cheap shot of Cliff Branch in that same game (Branch came back to finish the game; Swann did not), not to mention the play of Glen Edwards, Dwight White, and other Steeler defenders? On the witness stand Noll admitted that he had some “criminals” on his team, too. Which led to Mel Blount suing Chuck Noll! Some other facts to deal with, moron: 1) Noll and the Steelers were about to settle with Atkinson over the “criminal element” remarks but was urged not to by Pete Rozelle. Once again, Rozelle was trying to stick it to Al Davis and the Raiders. Your “lucky Raiders scheduling” and “anti-Cowboys bias” statements are ignorance, pure idiocy. Of course, Rozelle had to present the Super Bowl XI trophy to Davis and the Raiders in the Raiders locker room. After the presentation, Atkinson said to Rozelle, “I know this must kill you, havin’ to give us the trophy, eat your heart out, motherf—-!!” 2) During that time, any legal problems/cases that occurred in the Bay Area went to court in San Francisco. Oakland was given its own court system years later. The case would likely not have been thrown out of court if the hearings were held in Oakland. 3) “Chuck Noll said that (Atkinson) and I were a part of the ‘criminal element’ of the NFL. Maybe we were. But the only difference between the Raiders and Steelers of the ’70s were the colors of the uniforms. The Raiders punched, kicked, hit, and gouged for every inch of turf and so did the Steelers. And believe me, when the playoffs begin, the true sportsmen and gentlemen are usually on vacation”–Jack Tatum. You never heard Chuck Noll refer to Cliff Harris, Charlie Waters, and the Cowboys as a “criminal element.” That’s because, as Bradshaw says, “We kicked their (Dallas) ass whenever we played ’em. (Super Bowl X; ’77–28-13; Super Bowl XIII; ’79–14-3).” In the Steelers’ Super Bowl run from ’74-’79, Tatum’s Raiders were 4-2 vs. Pittsburgh while Harris’ Cowboys went 0-4. The Raiders matched up better because they were just as violent, brutal, and physical as the Steelers and the Cowboys simply were not. Further punctuating the point, Tatum was undefeated vs. Cliff Harris. Lynn Swann looked for a place to hide vs. Tatum and Atkinson (going 2-4 against them in the process) while the same Lynn Swann set records and danced through Harris and Waters at will and was undefeated against them. The Harris-led secondary basically put Swann and Stallworth in the Hall of Fame. Name ONE receiver in the Hall of Fame because of regularly lighting up the Tatum secondary. You can’t! Enough said. Back to where you belong, junior. • Rasputin May 15, 2017 No he didn’t, you lying moron. Lambert grabbed Harris from behind and PULLED him down. He didn’t pick him up. Anyone can watch the clip on youtube or elsewhere and confirm I’m right and you’re wrong. That’s not a “body slam” you effeminate weasel. You know even less about fighting than you do about football. And Harris might have kicked Lambert’s ass, but neither wanted to fight because neither wanted to draw a flag. Lambert already pushed his luck with that one cheap shot from behind, drawing officials’ eyes to the scene. He did nothing to continue to the action. But I’ve certainly been kicking your ass all over this page. Also: – Rozelle fined Atkinson$1,500 (a huge sum back then) and said he could not recall a more flagrant foul in his 16 year tenure as commissioner.

– The Raiders lost their stupid lawsuit (THAT’S a fact, halfwit).

– The things I’ve mentioned about Oakland getting all those home games or not playing the Steelers in 1978 or 1979 are also FACTS, moron.

– You said: “During that time, any legal problems/cases that occurred in the Bay Area went to court in San Francisco. Oakland was given its own court system years later. The case would likely not have been thrown out of court if the hearings were held in Oakland.”

You mean more Oakland homefield advantage, lol?

– The Cowboys kicked Bradshaw’s ass in 1972, while the Steelers kicked the Raiders’ asses twice. Craig Morton’s Broncos kicked the Raiders asses twice in 1972, while the Cowboys kicked Denver’s ass twice. Sledgehammer time, boy.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (talk about being torched!)

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Conference Championship Records As Full Time Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-5

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Cherry-picking is for little girls and old ladies, Joey. You still lose every time. It’s easy for me to just keep copy pasting those facts destroying you because you’ve never been able to refute them. Cliff Harris was better.

• Rasputin
May 13, 2017

The 1972 Steelers kicked the Tatum Raiders’ asses TWICE, LMFAO!

• Rasputin
May 2, 2017

Stop dodging this question, little Joey. It’s the most key, pertinent question in this entire exchange:

Why did the Tatum pass defense and Raiders overall perform worse than the Harris Cowboys in the regular season, in the playoffs, and against common opponents?

• Joseph Wright
May 12, 2017

Those are regular season stats that can be inflated (o\in the Cowboys case; Harris’ secondary especially) by playing NFC weaklings like the Giants, Eagles, and anyone other than the Vikings or Rams a combined 7 times a year. The AFC passed the ball more and the Tatum secondary got little help from the pass rush and outside of Ted Hendricks–who became a starter in 1976–none of the LBs were adept at pass coverage or blitzing. Cliff Harris was covered by a great front (like Emmitt Smith) while the Tatum secondary held the defense from total collapse (like Barry Sanders did for the Lions). Despite all that, The Tatum secondary thrived vs. Swann and Stallworth (4-2) while the Harris secondary was repeatedly undressed by them (going 0-4 in the sorry processe). Why is that, Razzie? Why won’t you answer why Swann and Stallworth were virtually nonfactors vs. Tatum’s secondary while they flamed and torched Cliff Harris’ secondary?

• Rasputin
May 12, 2017

– The Cliff Harris Cowboys also performed better than the Tatum Raiders in the playoffs and against common opponents. Oakland had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL in the 1970s and was routinely torched.

– The NFC East and its QBs were a lot better than the AFC West and its QBs, as we’ve established.

– The Dallas pass defense ranking fell from elite to mid pack without Harris, despite the same pass rush in place, while the Raiders slightly improved from the 20s to the high teens when Tatum left.

– Emmitt Smith was also the best RB in the country in high school and college, regardless of what line he had blocking for him or what system he was in.

– Dallas even did better against the Steelers than the Raiders did in years in which Pittsburgh was a common opponent, as we’ve established, and certainly did better against opponents overall.

Easy. Again, thanks for the free page replies, chump.

• Joseph Wright
May 13, 2017

The fact of the matter is Tatum was a much better defender to match up against the best receivers that Cliff Harris failed to match up against (Swann, Stallworth, Charley Taylor, Harold Jackson, the Air Coryell Cardinals) and Tatum’s secondary forced Staubach to compete less than half his passes (just like Jim Hart, Kilmer, Gabriel, Bradshaw–multiple games–, and Fran Tarkenton) and permitted zero passing TDs vs Dallas while Harris and the (Slow) ‘pokes let records fall while getting burned by the same players. Tatum was faster, hit with more power, was a stronger intimidator, and was just a much superior player to Cliff Harris. If Harris was the “Best Free Safety of the ’70s” why did Swann and Stallworth (not to mention Charley Taylor, Harold Jackson, Mel Gray, etc., etc., ETC) torch the Dallas secondary under his watch EVERY time they played him while Tatum’s secondary shut them down regularly? Paul Zimmerman and AP had Cliff Harris way overrated. Tatum, who admitted not being a great ballhawk, out-intercepted Harris (allegedly the better coverage safety) in the 70s and in his overall career. Tatum’s had two INT years better than Harris’ career-high INT year. Tatum’s best INT year came in the “post-chuck” era. Tatum was clearly superior to Harris. How can a free safety who is allegedly “the best coverage free safety of the 70s” have less than 30 INTs over a ten-year period? Ridiculously pathetic. Harris clearly benefited from the mainstream media Dallas bias.

Tatum: 4-2 vs. Swann and Stallworth
Harris: 0-4 vs. Swann and Stallworth
Tatum: 1-0 vs. Cowboys, Staubach, and Harris
Harris: 0-1 vs. Raiders, Stabler, and Tatum

As Bradshaw said, “Get used to it. Can’t change it.”

• Rasputin
May 13, 2017

No, it’s your OPINION that Tatum was better. Pretty much everyone outside of a few delusional Raiders fans disagrees, which is why Cliff Harris made twice as many Pro Bowls and was selected first team All Decade FS. Harris was smarter, tougher, and better than Jack Tatum. They both hit hard, but Harris was a more reliable tackler, hustled more, and was better in coverage. It’s a lot like the Darren Woodson/Roy Williams comparison (except Roy Williams was better than Jack Tatum). Williams got more interceptions but everyone agrees Woodson was a much better player, especially in coverage. There’s a lot more to coverage than interceptions, as I educated you on earlier. The Dallas interception leader in the 2000s was a big liability in pass defense.

Common Opponents –

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Conference Championship Record As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Why did Oakland lose every conference championship game but one, little Joey Wrong? You never answered that question. Why did the Tatum Raiders only manage to win 1 Super Bowl?

You’re out of ammo and you’ve gotten extremely boring, but it’s still fun to crack you with that sledgehammer from time to time.

Again, thanks for the free replies, chump. Let’s see if we can get “Why Lee Roy Jordan Belongs In The Hall” to #1 most commented.

• Joseph Wright
May 13, 2017

The only reason this is getting more replies is because you are too scared to answer the question as to why Tatum’s secondaries were able to shut down Swann and Stallworth while Harris struggled against them. Tatum didn’t have the defensive line that Harris benefited from and–with the exception of Ted Hendricks, a true game-changer–had functional yet ordinary linebackers. Without the secondary, the Raiders would have ranked right at the bottom in coverage statistics. Yet the team still consistently made the playoffs and advanced. Further, only one receiver (Haven Moses) ever torched them in the postseason. That happened to Harris’ secondary several times. The fact of the matter is, the AP writers and Zimmerman were still a decade or two behind the times. Guys like Cliff Harris, Larry Wilson and Charlie Waters skills and abilities don’t translate beyond the 1960s. When the caliber of receiver changed to Swann, Cliff Branch, Charley Taylor, Cliff Branch, John Stallworth, and Harold Jackson, you needed safeties in the mold of Tatum, Ken Houston, Ronnie Lott and Kenny Easley. Even without the wussification of Goddell on the league’s style of play today, Cliff Harris wouldn’t even rank with Bill Bates. And with Jack Tatum–forget it. Harris was too scrawny and too slow.

• Rasputin
May 13, 2017

The Raiders didn’t shut down hardly anyone, moron.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704

They didn’t shut down the Steelers as well as the Cowboys did.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

They certainly didn’t shut down the Craig Morton Broncos like the Cowboys did.

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

And the Tatum Raiders DID have one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

Pass Defense League Ranking

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

Dodge all you want, I’ll just keep easily nailing you with this.

You never have answered why you’re still clinging to your debunked “line”/”LB” excuse given how the rankings above changed in the teams’ first year without Tatum or Harris. I appreciate you serving as a punching bag that’s helping this article get closer to headlining the “most commented” list, but since you’re here you might as well answer the question. Why did the Tatum Raiders go a miserable 1-4 in conference championship games to the Harris Cowboys’ 4-2 and only win 1 Super Bowl to the Harris Cowboys’ 2? What was the weak point of the Oakland Raiders? Their offense? Their run defense? Or was it their pass defense? Be honest.

Harris was rightly chosen by HoF voters as the best FS of the 1970s. He was athletic, fast, tough, smart, skilled, and instinctive.

• Joseph Wright
May 15, 2017

“He was athletic, fast, tough, smart, skilled, and instinctive.” Let’s be realistic. Harris was hardly athletic (see performances vs. Lynn Swann) he wasn’t fast (see performances vs. Harold Jackson, John Stallworth, Charley Taylor, Mel Gray–I could go on), he wasn’t that tough (looking for places to hide vs. coming up strong to meet Csonka, Franco, Earl Campbell), he wasn’t too smart (calling out Lynn Swann the week before a game; physically taunting a kicker, further turning up the Steelers’ defensive intensity–and getting bodyslammed by Jack Lambert and losing the Super Bowl for his team in the process), he wasn’t too skilled (less decade–’70s’–and career INTs than Jack Tatum). He was instinctive. He realized that, “if I fall over the pile after my front seven corrals Csonka, people will say I was in on the tackle, too.” Also, after Lambert bodyslammed him in SB X, “I better get out of here or I’ll get my ass whupped on national TV!” And “Start acting like you’re gonna do something to Lambert–AFTER Jethro Pugh steps in to pull you away.” LOL!!!

The regular season stats mean nothing. The Raiders secondary didn’t have the aid of a good defensive line and, with the exception of Ted Hendricks, had no game-changers at linebacker. The secondary with the hard-hitting intimidation of safety tandem Tatum and Atkinson and the shutdown coverage of Willie Brown kept the defense from being at rock bottom of the NFL. Harris and Waters’ glaring weaknesses were camouflaged by Harvey Martin, Bob Lilly, Randy White, Too Tall Jones, and Larry Cole. Name one notable Raiders lineman during Tatum’s Raiders run. Additionally, the style of play in the AFC was going to yield more passing yards. And the Raiders were STILL regular playoff entries. The Cowboys were only 14 yards per game better than the Raiders. That’s basically one pass completion. Big deal. The ’72 playoff loss to the Steelers is controversial. “The Immaculate Reception.” More like DEception. Frenchy Fuqua hit the ball last before Franco caught it. By ’72 rules it should have been an illegal play. Unfortunately, the officials thought the Pittsburgh fans would riot if the TD was overruled so they let it go. The d-line couldn’t stop the run in ’73 vs. Miami or ’74 vs. the Steelers. The Raiders offense made five turnovers in the ’75 title game vs. Pittsburgh, including a Pete Banaszak muff as he was going into the endzone. And in ’77 at Denver, the officials blew a quick whistle, totally nullifying a Raiders’ recovery of Tatum’s forced fumble on Rob Lytle at the goalline. Denver scored on the next play. A 17-13 Raiders win (that they would have followed with an ass-whipping of Dallas in SB XII; Branch would have run circles around Harris and Waters; Casper simply would have run them over; Of course, D. Pearson, Golden Richards, and Tony Hill would have wanted no part of going over the middle vs. Tatum) became a 20-17 dethroning, the crowning glory of Denver’s fluky, lightening-in-a-bottle ’77 season. The defense (Alzado, Tom Jackson,Gradishiar, Louis Wright) was for real but, overall, that team did it with lucky bounces and mirrors.

I do know this:

Tatum’s secondary kept Drew Pearson, Golden Richards, and Billy Joe DuPree (all prominent receivers in 1975 and in ’77) out of the endzone in their only matchup, a Raiders victory. The Tatum secondary made Staubach fail to complete half his passes in that same game. The Harris secondary, by contrast, was carved up by Stabler and were scorched for three TD passes–one by the 80-year-old George Blanda.

Harris was an overrated player who just didn’t match up against the top receivers. Tatum was a game-changing standard bearer for future players (Ronnie Lott; Kenny Easley; Steve Atwater; Polamalu; Earl Thomas). Harris was a relic whose skill level was seven to ten years behind the times. Earlier you foolishly said, “so he (Tatum) impressed a couple of kids…” Those “couple of kids” were Lott and Easley–HALL of FAMERS! You’re an idiot. Tatum was a far superior player to Harris and Roy Williams. It’s ridiculous that a free safety can play nine or more years and get LESS THAN 30 INTs. That’s pathetic. As for this useless, irrelevant Williams-Darren Woodson contrast…of COURSE Williams would have more INTs than Woodson. Williams is a FREE safety. Woodson was a STRONG safety. That is apples to oranges, dummy. But Tatum out-INTed Harris 30-29 for the ’70s and 37-29 for their 10-year careers. And they were BOTH FREE safeties. Tatum was the superior player. The D-line and weak ’70s NFC competition boosted the Cowboys pass defense yards rankings, NOT Cliff Harris.

• Rasputin
May 15, 2017

“The regular season stats mean nothing.”

How about the common opponent and playoff stats, where the Cliff Harris Cowboys also crush the Tatum Raiders?

“The Raiders secondary didn’t have the aid of a good defensive line and, with the exception of Ted Hendricks, had no game-changers at linebacker. The secondary with the hard-hitting intimidation of safety tandem Tatum and Atkinson and the shutdown coverage of Willie Brown kept the defense from being at rock bottom of the NFL.”

Then why did the Raiders’ run defense usually rank better than their pass defense? And how many HoF and several Pro Bowl LBs do you need to not pretend the LBs were the weakness of your team? Face it, the weakness of the 1970s Raiders was their pass defense. That was by far their worst area. BTW, here’s what your hated DR Z had to say about Ted Hendricks:

DR Z : “He didn’t leave a trail of shattered bodies or a memory of ferocious hits, but he just played everything so well. He was seldom out of position, he could move backward and knock down passes with those long arms, or rush forward and smack them back at the quarterback. Everything was done from a plane of high intelligence; he had been a Rhodes Scholar finalist in college.”

“Harris and Waters’ glaring weaknesses were camouflaged by Harvey Martin, Bob Lilly, Randy White, Too Tall Jones, and Larry Cole.”

Yawn. Then explain this:

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

Bob Lilly had retired in the early 1970s, but in 1980 the Cowboys still had Harvey Martin, Randy White, Larry Cole, and had just gotten Too Tall back after he had missed 1979 boxing.

“Additionally, the style of play in the AFC was going to yield more passing yards. ”

Then why did the Raiders pass defense rank poorly even compared to other AFC teams, and why did the Cowboys pass defense perform better than the Raiders’ against common opponents (of either conference)?

“The Cowboys were only 14 yards per game better than the Raiders. That’s basically one pass completion.”

No. That’s averaging an extra 14 yards better EVERY WEEK for NINE YEARS. If it’s just fluctuating statistical noise then stuff like that evens out over a long period, but this didn’t. In fact the NFL average lies between the Cowboys and the Raiders, with Dallas among the best and Oakland among the league’s worst. That’s why I started posting the total in raw yardage to illustrate it better.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

“The ’72 playoff loss to the Steelers is controversial.”

LOL! What about Oakland’s OTHER loss to Pittsburgh in 1972? Because the Steelers kicked their asses in the regular season too. Or do you have a whiny excuse for that as well?

“The d-line couldn’t stop the run in ’73 vs. Miami or ’74 vs. the Steelers.”

Neither could Jack “business decision” Tatum. That doesn’t mean the run defense was worse than the pass defense though. It’s just that running is the default mode for teams, at least back then. If you had success running you’d usually keep running even if you could have had even more success passing, because teams were built to run, were comfortable running, and didn’t want to take unnecessary risks.

It’s amazing that in that run heavy era the Raiders surrendered such a vast number of passing yards, way more than most other teams.

“Denver scored on the next play. A 17-13 Raiders win (that they would have followed with an ass-whipping of Dallas in SB XII;”

LOL! The 1977 Cowboys ranked #1 in offense and #1 in defense and were peaking in the playoffs. They twice annihilated the team that kicked Oakland’s ass twice that year. Doomsday was a lot better than the Orange Crush, and was light years better than Tatum’s haggard crew. The Cowboys’ swarming pass coverage would have covered up Stabler’s receivers all day. Cliff Harris probably would have knocked out Cliff Branch instead Rick Upchurch. Since Dallas would have had an even easier time scoring on Oakland than it did against Denver, Stabler would have grown frustrated and thrown numerous interceptions….probably more than Craig Morton did, since Stabler threw as many interceptions as TDs in 1977, lol. Drew Pearson was fearless, not intimidated by anyone. Same with Roger Staubach. A slow, unathletic Tatum wouldn’t have been much help in containing the lightening fast Tony Dorsett, and the pounding Tatum received from downfield blocking Cowboys linemen (the strong, quiet professionals of the “Zero Club”) likely would have demoralized and caused him to check out early. The Cowboys would have kicked the Raiders’ asses by an even bigger margin than they did the Broncos’.

It would have been much bigger than the Cowboys’ victory over the 1980 Raiders. Much, much bigger.

“Williams is a FREE safety. Woodson was a STRONG safety.”

Actually Williams played strong safety for most of his career, moron, with Woodson switching to free safety near the end.

I’ve already debunked everything else you’ve said (seriously, learn what “body slam” means, wuss, LMFAO!).

Pro Bowls
Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pros
Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Cliff Harris – first team
Jack Tatum – none

Sports Illustrated All Century Team
Cliff Harris – starting FS
Jack Tatum – none
Ted Hendricks – “all around” OLB

Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, more athletic, and more skilled than Tatum. He was rightly recognized by HoF voters as the best FS of the decade.

• Joseph Wright
May 16, 2017

“The Cowboys’ swarming pass coverage would have covered up Stabler’s receivers all day. Cliff Harris probably would have knocked out Cliff Branch instead Rick Upchurch.” Really? Why didn’t ANY of this happen in the ’74 ass-whipping the Cowboys got at the hands of Stabler–who wasn’t intercepted in that game. Cliff Branch scorched them on a deep TD –from 80-year-old George Blanda. Where’s the swarming coverage, moron? Swarming pass coverage? They couldn’t even cover Swann and Stallworth and the Raiders were coming with Biletnikoff, Branch, AND Casper. And the film doesn’t lie. Lambert bodyslammed Harris’ scrawny, sorry ass.

The fact that Staubach completed less than half his passes and had zero TD passes in his encounter with the Raiders vs. the Tatum secondary shows who had the better coverage. Drew Pearson was a nonfactor and Harris was burned three times for TDs. I am only dealing with performances, Razzie. The regular season stats are empty. When the Raiders played the Steelers during their Super Bowl run in the 70s (’74-79) they beat them four of six times, including three straight. Swann and Stallworth caught one touchdown each during those games and had little impact on those games. If their careers were based on those types of performances, neither would be in the Hall of Fame. Their performances–in which receiving and passing records fell–against the sorry Harris-led secondary put them in the Hall of Fame. Those are the facts.

I never criticized Ted Hendricks. He was a true Hall of Famer and a far greater game-changer than Chuck Howley. I don’t need the fraudulent Dr. Z to know that. But he was the ONLY stud in the front seven that Jack Tatum had to work with (kind of like Lomas Brown was the only stud Barry Sanders had to work with, but I digress). Without Martin, White, Jones, and Cole, not to mention Hollywood Henderson, the Cowboys pass defense with Harris and Waters in the lineup easily slips behind the Raiders. Give Tatum Howie Long and Alzado to go with Hendricks and let’s see what the rankings are. Or, at least, let’s have Rod Martin instead of Phil Villapiano in pass coverage. Even without a good pass rush, Swann and Stallworth didn’t torch the Raiders secondary like they did the Cowboys’ Harris-anchored scam of a backfield.

So…Staubach couldn’t complete even HALF of his passes and Drew Pearson and the receiving corps couldn’t catch any TD passes vs Tatum and Co.? LMFAO!!! Kicked your ass..AGAIN!!!

• Rasputin
May 16, 2017

“The regular season stats are empty.”

Really? No, I think they’re telling, especially over almost a decade period.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

And that’s despite the Cowboys playing in a much tougher division in the NFC East with many more Pro Bowl QBs and playoff teams than the Raiders faced in the lousy AFC West.

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

But you also dodged this:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

The Cowboys were so good they also faced a lot more garbage time, destroying that excuse you blindly tried to use.

Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths)

Cowboys: 25.9–10.5; +15.4 point/game margin
Raiders: 29.9–20.1; +9.8 point/game margin

Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

While you’ve been obsessively cherry-picking performances by a couple of individual WRs in games you didn’t even watch, has it occurred to you that cornerbacks matter, lol? We’ve established you know nothing about football, but if we’re going by stats like passing yardage allowed, which you started with your initial, ignorant argument, then overall team passing performance is far more telling, especially for judging safeties. Besides, cherry-picking is for little girls and old ladies, little Joey Wrong. How’d they do against common opponents overall, regular season and playoff?

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

The 1977 Broncos were by far the most important common opponent, since they played 5 games against the Cowboys/Raiders (no other team even played 4 against them in a particular year all decade), including back to back in the two most important games of the season, the conference championship and the Super Bowl (and they whipped the Steelers twice for good measure).

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

On the highlights there’s a great shot of Jack Tatum trailing helplessly on the 74 yard TD to Haven Moses. It must have been embarrassing for Tatum to get torched by a 74 yard TD pass on the big stage like that.

He probably should have been more embarrassed by his less than 100% effort in the run game against the Dolphins in the 1973 AFC Championship (the Raiders lost a lot of conference championship games, going 1-4 in the Tatum era). In fairness he did try to tackle Larry Csonka early on a couple of times, only to get trucked for an additional several yards. This was probably on his mind when he reached out with ONE hand and declined to try to tackle the Dolphins’ RB as he rushed by him into the end zone. I’ve NEVER seen Cliff Harris make a “business decision” like Tatum did. Harris gave 100% on every play, and was a more reliable tackler than Tatum in addition to being better in coverage.

Miami put up 266 rushing yards on the soft Raiders defense that day, with Csonka contributing 117 yards and 3 TDs. Griese only attempted 6 passes, because they didn’t NEED to pass, which often happened with the Raiders in the playoffs (making their higher passing yardage allowed stats even more pathetic). Tatum’s Oakland Raiders couldn’t even stop a one dimensional team. Miami blew out Oakland 27-10, the same score Dallas would crush the 1977 Broncos by, though not as big as the margin by which Dallas blew out Miami.

In Super Bowl VI the Cowboys held the Dolphins to 80 rushing yards and Csonka to 40. Griese was forced to attempt 23 passes, though it didn’t do him any good as he ended up with a 51.7 rating and a 24-3 loss. The Cliff Harris Cowboys are still the only team in SB history to hold their opponent out of the end zone.

The Raiders didn’t play the Steelers in 1978 or 1979 after the chuck rule change, and in fact the Tatum Raiders only played Pittsburgh once after Stallworth became the full time starter, that early 1977 game when the Steelers got off to a terrible 4-4 start (that saw them get beat worse in all 3 other losses, to the Broncos, Oilers, and Colts than they did to the Raiders) before righting the ship and finishing a strong 5-1 to make the playoffs. But the 1972 Steelers did kick the Raiders’ asses twice, while getting their asses kicked by the Cowboys. In fact, while they were never as meaningful a common opponent as the 1977 Broncos, since you’re obsessively harping on them, I’ll point that even your cherry-picked example fails under scrutiny. In the years where Pittsburgh did play both teams the Cowboys performed better against them than the Raiders did.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

That’s despite the Cowboys not getting to play Pittsburgh in 1976, when they were a walking MASH unit due to things like Raiders safety George Atkinson taking out Lynn Swann from behind with a cowardly cheap shot to the head away from the play, and both the Steelers’ 1,000 yard RBs being out of the starting lineup with injuries in the playoff game. Otherwise, there’s a good chance the 1970s Raiders would have zero Super Bowl appearances.

Lambert never “body slammed” Cliff Harris, you wuss. He ran up, grabbed him from behind, and PULLED him down. Harris immediately popped up and they were separated since no players wanted to get flags. A body slam is when you pick someone up off the ground and slam them back down into the ground with force (see classic Matt Hughes fights). Amazingly you know even less about fighting than you do about football, LMFAO.

“Without Martin, White, Jones, and Cole, not to mention Hollywood Henderson, the Cowboys pass defense with Harris and Waters in the lineup easily slips behind the Raiders.”

It almost slipped to the Raiders’ sorry level when HARRIS left, despite still having Martin, White, Cole, and Jones (who was back after having missed 1979). You never have explained this, you cowardly dodger:

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

The Cowboys’ line was awesome. But so were their safeties. That’s why together Doomsday was on top while the Raiders’ defense ranked low. The truth is that the 1970s Raiders’ weakest spot was their pass defense. The Tatum Raiders had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL, while the Harris Cowboys had one of the best.

– The 1974 regular season (“empty”?) meeting was the most meaningless game of the decade for Dallas. It was by far their worst season as they finished 8-6 and missed the the playoffs, while the Raiders had one of their best seasons, going 12-2. And yet the Cowboys almost won the 4 point game anyway AT OAKLAND.

In 1980 the Cowboys beat the Super Bowl bound Raiders by 6 points (kicked their asses by your logic) also AT OAKLAND. Also by your logic the 1980 Cowboys were waaaaay better than the 1980 Raiders, LMFAO. Man, you’re faceplant prone.

To finish up the sledgehammer work….

Pro Bowls

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections

Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Champion Records As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, and more athletic than Tatum. He went to twice as many Pro Bowls and won twice as many Super Bowls. The team dropped way off without him while the Raiders slightly improved without Tatum and won the Super Bowl the first year after he left. Cliff Harris was rightly chosen by HoF voters as the decade’s best FS.

I’ve kicked your ass all over this page. You’re just repeating your already refuted points, you lying, cowardly moron. So until you come up with something new I’ll keep reposting this.

• Joseph Wright
May 16, 2017

” the Cowboys playing in a much tougher division in the NFC East with many more Pro Bowl QBs and playoff teams than the Raiders faced in the lousy AFC West.” Big moron you are. John Hadl and Dan Fouts were Pro Bowl QBs in the AFC West; Len Dawson is in the Hall of Fame. From 1971-77, Cliff Harris got four weekends off every year (Giants, Eagles), padding the Cowboys pass defense yardage record in the process.

Lying and fraudulently adding in Bob Lee’s garbage time Super Bowl stats is pure chicken-hearted cowardice. Tatum and at least four other Raider defenders were on the sidelines at that point as the Raiders were comfortably ahead 32-7. Plus, that eliminates the fact that the Raiders did a better job on pass defense than the Cowboys a year before in Super Bowl X, as Harris was scorched by Swann and Bradshaw. Are you also gonna say that Harris’ secondary did a better job in SB X (or XIII) than Lott’s 49ers in SB XIX? You’re an idiot.

“A body slam is when you pick someone up off the ground and slam them back down into the ground with force.” Which is precisely what Lambert did to Harris’ scrawny little ass on film! The footage doesn’t lie.

As for the nonsense about Harris and the Cowboys putting Branch out of the game (SB XII) like Rick Upchurch:

A) The Steelers could never put Branch out of a game and he was toughened up during the week scrimmaging vs. Willie Brown, Tatum, and Atkinson. Why would ANYONE believe the weak-hitting Harris and the weak-hitting Cowboys would take Branch out?

B) Upchurch was a scrub and nowhere near the player Branch was.

• Rasputin
May 16, 2017

You just had a meltdown, collapsed into a fetal position, and are rocking back and forth, foaming at the mouth. These two comments were the closest to new things you said:

“B) Upchurch was a scrub and nowhere near the player Branch was.”

Leaving aside the fact that doesn’t matter because Cliff Harris routinely knocked out good players, Upchurch was the 1977 Broncos’ best playmaker. He was a 4 time Pro Bowler and 3 time first team All Pro selection, so he was more decorated and closer to being a Hall of Famer than Jack Tatum, lol.

“The ’77 Cowboys were extremely lucky the Broncos were riding that fluky wave in ’77.”

Denver swept Oakland in 1978, LMFAO! Craig Morton’s Broncos pounded the Raiders 4 times in 2 years. “Lucky”? For the most part these weren’t close 4 point games like the Cowboys/Steelers Super Bowls either.

In those 4 Denver wins they beat Oakland by a combined score of 87-36! That rounds to an average of 22-9…..over FOUR games! THAT’S dominance. Plus the 1977 Broncos also beat the Steelers TWICE. They were a very good team with a legitimately great defense.

The Tatum Raiders never made the playoffs again after that 1977 loss. Craig Morton, the old Cowboy and Giant, ended Tatum’s and Stabler’s playoff careers as Raiders. How does that make you feel? : )

“Of course, now Razzie lies and says Bleier was a nonfactor in ’77.”

No, I just pointed out that he only rushed for 465 yards and 3.4 y/c in 1977, a huge drop off from 1976 when he rushed for 1,036 at 4.7 y/c. Those are facts, liar. The Steelers had two 1,000 yard backs that powered them to the playoffs in 1976, something you actually emphasized before I pointed out that both those RBs were INJURED for their playoff game against Oakland, leading to your current backpedaling and hypocritical insistence that missing both their star RBs somehow didn’t matter.

I enjoy it when you try to post something new, because you’re such a hateful little faceplant-prone buffoon that it ALWAYS blows up in your face like this did. However the rest of your post is just recycled garbage I’ve already debunked, so I’ll hit you with the sledgehammer again.

“The regular season stats are empty.”

Really? No, I think they’re telling, especially over almost a decade period.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

And that’s despite the Cowboys playing in a much tougher division in the NFC East with many more Pro Bowl QBs and playoff teams than the Raiders faced in the lousy AFC West.

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

But you also dodged this:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

The Cowboys were so good they also faced a lot more garbage time, destroying that excuse you blindly tried to use.

Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths)

Cowboys: 25.9–10.5; +15.4 point/game margin
Raiders: 29.9–20.1; +9.8 point/game margin

Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

While you’ve been obsessively cherry-picking performances by a couple of individual WRs in games you didn’t even watch, has it occurred to you that cornerbacks matter, lol? We’ve established you know nothing about football, but if we’re going by stats like passing yardage allowed, which you started with your initial, ignorant argument, then overall team passing performance is far more telling, especially for judging safeties. Besides, cherry-picking is for little girls and old ladies, little Joey Wrong. How’d they do against common opponents overall, regular season and playoff?

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

The 1977 Broncos were by far the most important common opponent, since they played 5 games against the Cowboys/Raiders (no other team even played 4 against them in a particular year all decade), including back to back in the two most important games of the season, the conference championship and the Super Bowl (and they whipped the Steelers twice for good measure).

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

On the highlights there’s a great shot of Jack Tatum trailing helplessly on the 74 yard TD to Haven Moses. It must have been embarrassing for Tatum to get torched by a 74 yard TD pass on the big stage like that.

He probably should have been more embarrassed by his less than 100% effort in the run game against the Dolphins in the 1973 AFC Championship (the Raiders lost a lot of conference championship games, going 1-4 in the Tatum era). In fairness he did try to tackle Larry Csonka early on a couple of times, only to get trucked for an additional several yards. This was probably on his mind when he reached out with ONE hand and declined to try to tackle the Dolphins’ RB as he rushed by him into the end zone. I’ve NEVER seen Cliff Harris make a “business decision” like Tatum did. Harris gave 100% on every play, and was a more reliable tackler than Tatum in addition to being better in coverage.

Miami put up 266 rushing yards on the soft Raiders defense that day, with Csonka contributing 117 yards and 3 TDs. Griese only attempted 6 passes, because they didn’t NEED to pass, which often happened with the Raiders in the playoffs (making their higher passing yardage allowed stats even more pathetic). Tatum’s Oakland Raiders couldn’t even stop a one dimensional team. Miami blew out Oakland 27-10, the same score Dallas would crush the 1977 Broncos by, though not as big as the margin by which Dallas blew out Miami.

In Super Bowl VI the Cowboys held the Dolphins to 80 rushing yards and Csonka to 40. Griese was forced to attempt 23 passes, though it didn’t do him any good as he ended up with a 51.7 rating and a 24-3 loss. The Cliff Harris Cowboys are still the only team in SB history to hold their opponent out of the end zone.

The Raiders didn’t play the Steelers in 1978 or 1979 after the chuck rule change, and in fact the Tatum Raiders only played Pittsburgh once after Stallworth became the full time starter, that early 1977 game when the Steelers got off to a terrible 4-4 start (that saw them get beat worse in all 3 other losses, to the Broncos, Oilers, and Colts than they did to the Raiders) before righting the ship and finishing a strong 5-1 to make the playoffs. But the 1972 Steelers did kick the Raiders’ asses twice, while getting their asses kicked by the Cowboys. In fact, while they were never as meaningful a common opponent as the 1977 Broncos, since you’re obsessively harping on them, I’ll point that even your cherry-picked example fails under scrutiny. In the years where Pittsburgh did play both teams the Cowboys performed better against them than the Raiders did.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

That’s despite the Cowboys not getting to play Pittsburgh in 1976, when they were a walking MASH unit due to things like Raiders safety George Atkinson taking out Lynn Swann from behind with a cowardly cheap shot to the head away from the play, and both the Steelers’ 1,000 yard RBs being out of the starting lineup with injuries in the playoff game. Otherwise, there’s a good chance the 1970s Raiders would have zero Super Bowl appearances.

Lambert never “body slammed” Cliff Harris, you wuss. He ran up, grabbed him from behind, and PULLED him down. Harris immediately popped up and they were separated since no players wanted to get flags. A body slam is when you pick someone up off the ground and slam them back down into the ground with force (see classic Matt Hughes fights). Amazingly you know even less about fighting than you do about football, LMFAO.

“Without Martin, White, Jones, and Cole, not to mention Hollywood Henderson, the Cowboys pass defense with Harris and Waters in the lineup easily slips behind the Raiders.”

It almost slipped to the Raiders’ sorry level when HARRIS left, despite still having Martin, White, Cole, and Jones (who was back after having missed 1979). You never have explained this, you cowardly dodger:

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

The Cowboys’ line was awesome. But so were their safeties. That’s why together Doomsday was on top while the Raiders’ defense ranked low. The truth is that the 1970s Raiders’ weakest spot was their pass defense. The Tatum Raiders had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL, while the Harris Cowboys had one of the best.

The 1974 regular season finale (“empty”?) meeting was the most meaningless game of the decade for Dallas. It was by far their worst season as they finished 8-6 and missed the playoffs for the only time in Harris’ career, while the Raiders had one of their best seasons, going 12-2. And yet the Cowboys almost won the 4 point game anyway AT OAKLAND.

In 1980 the Cowboys beat the Super Bowl bound Raiders by 6 points (kicked their asses by your logic) also AT OAKLAND. Also by your logic the 1980 Cowboys were waaaaay better than the 1980 Raiders, LMFAO. Man, you’re faceplant prone.

To finish up the sledgehammer work….

Pro Bowls

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections

Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Champion Records As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, and more athletic than Tatum. He went to twice as many Pro Bowls and won twice as many Super Bowls. The team dropped way off without him while the Raiders slightly improved without Tatum and won the Super Bowl the first year after he left. Cliff Harris was rightly chosen by HoF voters as the decade’s best FS.

I’ve kicked your ass all over this page. You’re just repeating your already refuted points, you lying, cowardly moron. So until you come up with something new I’ll keep reposting this.

• Joseph Wright
May 17, 2017

Upchurch was a Pro Bowler and All-Pro as a kick returner, dummy. Upchurch was never the receiver Branch was. And, once again, Branch never had to come out of any game against the Steelers so why should we expect him to come out after those weak hits of Cliff Harris? That is, if Harris could have caught him–HIGHLY UNLIKELY. Harris couldn’t catch Swann or Stallworth or Harold Jackson. Why should Branch do nothing less than burn Harris sorry, slow, overrated ass?

As for your flip-flopping (then again, they do say a woman has a right to change her mind), so Bleier would have destroyed the Raiders in ’76 but was garbage in ’77? School is in session: The Raiders won three straight from the Steelers–’76 season opener with Franco and Bleier in place (fresh off the SB X Scorching of Cliff Harris secondary); The AFC Title game without Franco and Bleier (everyone on the Steelers defense was healthy. Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth couldn’t step up vs. the “weak” Tatum secondary?); and the ’77 early-season rematch–in Pittsburgh (so much for your stupid “lucky Raiders scheduling” rant)–with Franco and Bleier in place. However, it does seem to me, the Cowboys could only beat the Steelers in the ’70s as long as Swann, Stallworth, and Cliff Harris bodyslammer Jack Lambert weren’t on the team. As Barry Sanders used to say, “Hmmm.”

“Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, and more athletic than Tatum.” Ridiculous. Tatum came up strongly to meet Csonka, Franco, and Earl Campbell. He could never sting Csonka but he didn’t sheepishly roll over the piles his front seven made to make you think he tackled Csonka, either. Tatum stuffed Franco multiple times, Harris let Franco go uncontested up the middle–where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be–for a 61-yd. TD in ’77 and a 22-yd. TD in SB XIII the next year. Tatum knocked Earl Campbell woozy at the goal line in ’79, Harris was no where to be seen around Campbell Thanksgiving Day ’79. Tatum knocked out Denver’s Pro Bowl tight end Riley Odoms, Harris knocked out wimpy little Rick (“Uh-uh. I’m not going in there where Tatum is”) Upchurch. Tatum seeked contact against bigger opponents, Harris looked for a place to hide. The films, video, and YouTube don’t lie. Tatum beats Harris in the toughness round.

Tatum never physically taunted a kicker, thus inspiring the other team to victory. Tatum never called out a player then not back it up and then get pasted by that very player in the process. Here’s the difference:

“He (Lynn Swann) had better watch his head.”–Cliff Harris before SB X–Swann goes on to a Super Bowl record 161 yards receiving (Explain this, Razzie–PRE-CHUCK RULE-LMFAO!!!) and the game-winning TD, taking home MVP honors. Swann flames Harris again in SB XIII for good measure. Cliff Harris essentially puts Lynn Swann (and John Stallworth) in Hall of Fame. Who went in thanks to Jack Tatum? Wait! Look everyone! There goes that moron Razzie now, campaigning for his mancrush, Haven Moses! LOL!!!!

“Swann knows when he comes into my area or (Atkinson’s) area to catch a ball or attempt to catch a ball he’s gonna get hit and hit hard. But he’s a professional athlete with a job to do and if he doesn’t do it then the Steelers are going to have to replace him with someone who can. He knows this and I know this. In the past he done a lot of mouthing off (about my tackling style). Personally, I think he’s more interested in being a broadcaster than football player.”–Tatum before ’76 AFC Title game–Swann makes three catches for 58 yards and no TDs: three drops following hits from Tatum and three deflections from Atkinson. Raiders win, 24-7. Tatum was smarter than Harris.

Tatum intercepted 37 passes to Harris 29 and until the league office fudged on an Aeneus Williams’ play (“Let’s get Tatum’s name off the record books”) held the NFL record for longest fumble return (104-yd TD). Tatum was a far superior athlete than Cliff Harris. Tatum was a far better matchup vs Swann and Stallworth than Cliff Harris. Swann and Stallworth exposed Harris time and time and time again. The proof is in the record: Tatum was 4-2 vs. Swann and Stallworth and Harris never won a game verses them, giving them and Terry Bradshaw six–SIX!!!–post-season records in the process. That’s what happens when you put a non-athletic free safety (Cliff Harris) out there against top-caliber athletes (Swann, Stallworth). What passing/ receiving records ever fell to a Tatum-led secondary that led to a Raiders loss, Razzie? Did they ever give up a record number of yards during the regular season that you are sooooo infatuated with?

I saw all the Cliff Harris’ torchings, either on film (Charley Taylor’s ’72 NFC Title game; Raiders ’74 three TD-pass thrashing of Dallas), in person (Harold Jackson’s 238 yd., 4 TD barbecuing of Harris and Charlie Waters at the L.A. Coliseum in ’73), or on TV (Swann’s SB X; Jackson scorching the Harris’ secondary from a weak-armed Pat Haden in ’76; Swann and Stallworth toasting Harris–AGAIN– in SB XIII; Vince Ferregamo, Ron Smith, and Billy Waddy’s cremation job on Harris in the ’79 playoffs, kicking his ass out of football for good…or did he just quit?) All this “you’ve never seen the games” bull is another view of your lying nature. You say that the Cowboys shut down Swann and Stallworth in the ’77 matchup. Not quite. Swann caught one pass for nine yards–it was a touchdown. Within the same game, you say that Dallas held Stallworth to 4 catches for 46 yards. Hey, readers, what Razzie the Liar neglects to say is that one of those catches was a 28-yd TD. I will admit this: I never saw the Civil War. However, I know the North kicked the South’s ass. I wasn’t born in 1963, but I know President Kennedy was killed–in Dallas. And, finally, I wasn’t born in 1941 but I know Pearl Harbor was bombed–like Cliff Harris…LOL!!!

The Tatum secondary can only be cited with one playoff failure, the Denver AFC title game. Great game by Haven Moses. Cliff Harris’ secondary has the ’72 NFC Title game (Charley Taylor; pre-chuck rule), Super Bowl X (Lynn Swann; pre-chuck rule), ’76 playoffs (Harold Jackson; pre-chuck rule), Super Bowl XIII (Bradshaw, Swann AND Stallworth), and ’79 playoffs (no-names Ferragamo, Ron Smith-who?-and Billy Waddy–WHO?!?!?!?) to account for. Tatum’s secondary only sprung a serious leak once, Harris-anchored secondaries were exposed and gave up records–RECORDS!–multiple times.

I just exposed your ass again. Go pull up your pants, junior.

• Rasputin
May 17, 2017

To highlight how full of BS you are even with your cherry-picked items, here’s what really happened with Super Bowl X. Two weeks earlier, while Pittsburgh was kicking Oakland’s ass, the Raiders had knocked Lynn Swann out with multiple cheap shots.

Lynn Swann: “Jack Tatum had drilled me from behind in the neck at the end of the first half…It was a real cheap shot because I was completely away from the play … ”

Lynn Swann: “”Then, in the second half, I caught a pass over the middle and George Atkinson hog-tied me around the neck and drove me head-first into the ice.”

Cliff Harris: “One of the reporters asked me if I was going to ease up on Swann because of his concussion. All I said was, ‘This is pro football, fellas. If he runs into my area, I’m going to knock him out.'”

Pittsburgh Paper: “Much to Harris’ chagrin even today, he never got his shot at Swann.”

Cliff Harris: “Go ahead, ask him how many times he came across the middle that day. He caught zero balls in my area. He and Terry Bradshaw listened to me. They didn’t jeopardize his health. They never called a play for him over the middle until the one time when I was in a safety blitz.”

Paper: “That turned out to be the play that iced the Steelers’ win. Leading, 15-10, with little more than three minutes to play, Bradshaw faced a third-and-4 at the Steelers’ 36. Cowboys Coach Tom Landry called an all-out blitz, leaving cornerback Mark Washington in single coverage on Swann. Linebacker D.D. Lewis had a clear shot at Bradshaw but missed. Bradshaw stepped up and unloaded the ball just as Harris hit him in the midsection and defensive tackle Larry Cole hit him in the head. More than 80 million people watching the game around the world saw how the play ended, but Bradshaw didn’t. He was knocked out with a concussion.”

CB Washington was the one who got worked on that game. Lynn Swann avoided Cliff Harris, and during Swann’s 64 yard TD catch Harris was helping give Terry Bradshaw a concussion.

You’re a lying wuss who knows nothing about football or fighting (seriously, google “UFC knockouts – Matt Hughes vs Frank Trigg” and click on the 19 second youtube video that pops up for an example of what a body slam is). You’re full of crap about Harris. He ALWAYS played hard and hit hard. I’ve never seen him wilt like Jack Tatum did against Larry Csonka in the playoffs. I just proved that you’re lying about having watched all these games or you wouldn’t have harped on the SB X Lynn Swann thing.

“As for your flip-flopping…so Bleier would have destroyed the Raiders in ’76 but was garbage in ’77?”

I never said that, liar. I pointed out the fact that the Franco/Bleier combination rushed for a lot more yards in 1976 than in 1977. Effectiveness and other things change from season to season. The first 1976 Steelers/Raiders game was a 3 point squeaker that saw Pittsburgh roll up almost 200 rushing yards, 242 net passing yards, and 28 points against Oakland. I just said if the Steelers hadn’t been missing both of their star 1,000 yard RBs they would have had a good chance to win in the playoff rematch, certainly much better than they had without them. Of course the Raiders were lucky not to have to play a full strength opponent.

“Upchurch was a Pro Bowler and All-Pro as a kick returner, dummy.”

So what, moron? I said he was more decorated than Jack Tatum and has a better chance at the Hall of Fame than he does (which isn’t saying much). Punter Ray Guy is in the Hall of Fame. I also pointed out that Upchurch was the Broncos’ best playmaker that season. He had by far Denver’s best play of Super Bowl XII, a big kick return that set up their only TD (before Cliff Harris knocked him out). He also led the NFL in return yardage in 1977, so he was clearly a good runner in traffic.

“I never saw the Civil War. However, I know the North kicked the South’s ass.”

Not man for man it didn’t. Other way around.

“I wasn’t born in 1963, but I know President Kennedy was killed–in Dallas.”

By a left winger whose politics were more in line with the Bay Area’s than Dallas’. Speaking of which, when do you think Oakland will have a football team again?

“The Tatum secondary can only be cited with one playoff failure”

LOL! Sledgehammer time, Josephine. I”ll make it a more streamlined version today.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

The Cowboys were so good they also faced a lot more garbage time, destroying that excuse you blindly tried to use.

Average Score In Playoff Wins, 1971-1979 (rounded to nearest tenths)

Cowboys: 25.9–10.5; +15.4 point/game margin
Raiders: 29.9–20.1; +9.8 point/game margin

Double Digit Victories, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

Looks like a lot more than “one” failure to me. The Tatum Raiders failed a lot more often than the Cowboys did.

“And, finally, I wasn’t born in 1941 but I know Pearl Harbor was bombed–like Cliff Harris…LOL!!!”

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Pro Bowls
Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections
Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Conference Championship Record
Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins
Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Playoff Wins
Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Cliff Harris – first team FS
Jack Tatum – N/A

Decisive. The facts haven’t changed. You still lose. Cliff Harris was smarter, tougher, and more athletic than Tatum. Harris was the best FS of the 1970s. Keep posting, boy, and I’ll keep kicking your ass.

• Joseph Wright
May 18, 2017

Some much-needed clarity for the readers:
A) “Lynn Swann: ‘Jack Tatum had drilled me from behind in the neck at the end of the first half…It was a real cheap shot because I was completely away from the play … ‘” It was a running play. Swann was a legal target and so was Tatum. In other words, Swann could have blocked Jack. No flag was thrown.

B) “Lynn Swann: ‘Then, in the second half, I caught a pass over the middle and George Atkinson hog-tied me around the neck and drove me head-first into the ice.’ It was a clean, legal hit for 1975. Again, no flag was thrown and Tatum recovered the resulting fumble (to go along with two INTs he had in the game; did Harris generate any turnovers two weeks later, Razzie? LMAO!!!). Pete Rozelle, who was at the game, did not subsequently fine Atkinson for that play at all. Tatum was not fined for his legal hit on Swann, either. Although Steelers’ hypocrite–I mean, head coach–Chuck Noll said “Tatum should be banned from ever playing professional football again.” Never happened.

C) “Lynn Swann avoided Cliff Harris, and during Swann’s 64 yard TD catch Harris was helping give Terry Bradshaw a concussion.” On Swann’s first catch down the right sideline in the first quarter, Harris makes the tackle. Because Swann caught the ball, I suppose Harris was LATE coming over. I guess that means he was TOO SLOW. As for the 64-yd TD bomb, Harris is able to ride Bradshaw down only after Larry Cole clocks Bradshaw with a helmet-to-helmet earhole job topped off with a forearm shiv to the jaw and chin (perfectly legal for 1975). Three key points here: 1. Harris once again was getting credit he didn’t deserve (that was Cole’s damage all the way; a Dallas D-lineman making Harris look good again–inflating the image) 2. Bradshaw would have gone done in a heap without Harris’ soft, pillow-fighting “tackle” 3. Harris was late coming in on the blitz. Translation: Too slow

D) Never proved that I never watched these games. I saw Super Bowl X and Super Bowl XIII in my living room on live TV. I was at the Coliseum in 1973–pre-chuck rule–when Harold Jackson destroyed Harris and Charlie Waters for 238 receiving yards (on only seven catches), four–FOUR–touchdowns, including 63 and 67-yard scorchings, with them trailing. I watched Harold Jackson get another 116 yards from a weak-armed Pat Haden in the comfort of my living room on live national TV. I saw no-names Ferregamo, Ron Smith, and Billy Waddy as they cremated the remains of Harris’ sorry, overrated career on live TV. And I watched the Raiders highlights of Stabler and 80-year-old George Blanda roasting Harris’ and his secondary for three TDs (Tatum’s secondary gave up zero TDs and made Staubach a sub-50 percent QB that night). But the Funniest Harris flaming of all was the 30-minute NFL Films ’72 NFC Title Game where Charley Taylor goes crazy on the Harris-led secondary and the Redskins are sending Cowboys limping off the field left and right. It looked like the North’s massacre of the South in the Civil War. Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t see the Civil War. So I guess I can’t comment on the brutal ass-whipping that the South received. OK. LOL!!!

Two parting shots:

1) From 1974-79, I don’t remember Chuck Noll saying Dallas was a part of any “criminal elements.” That’s because the Steelers pimp-slapped the Cowboys regularly and Dallas took it like the soft, finesse team that they were.
Whenever a team fought back, hit hard, and beat the Steelers (like the Raiders or Jerry Glanville’s Oilers), Noll was on his post-game soap box saying things like “criminal elements” and “it’s bad for the game.”

2) Any other time a receiver ran rough-shod over a Tatum-led secondary besides your man-crush, Haven Moses? Is Moses the ONLY one who had 100+ yards and/or multiple TDs in one game in the playoffs at the Assassin’s expense? Can you even find a regular season game? Were any receiving or passing records ever given up, especially in a loss, by a Tatum secondary?

Get back to me, junior. The Cowboy excuses and weak Dallas alibis are pathetic.

• Rasputin
May 18, 2017

“On Swann’s first catch down the right sideline in the first quarter, Harris makes the tackle. Because Swann caught the ball, I suppose Harris was LATE coming over.”

The “SIDELINE”, lol? You’re just confirming what I quoted about Swann avoiding Harris in the middle, moron. Yeah, Harris was fast and instinctive enough to often fly to the other side of the field and make the tackle on a player who was another defender’s responsibility, not something I’ve seen much of from Tatum.

Clearly you hadn’t watched even that Super Bowl until I exposed you as a fraud on this Lynn Swann SB X stuff. There’s no evidence you’ve watched most if any of these other, non-SB games either. Unlike you, the people who voted Cliff Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Tatum and selected Harris as the best FS of the decade did watch those games.

Oh, and there’s nothing “hard” about hitting someone from behind when they’re far away from the play. That’s wussy ball. The Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was tougher, harder, and way more violent than the Raiders, if not as prone to cheap shots. It’s not even close.

Dallas ranked in the top 10 in defense EVERY YEAR Cliff Harris was a starter. Even Pittsburgh’s Steel Curtain wasn’t in the top 10 every year. The Tatum Raiders were only in the top 10 TWICE.

Defense

Average Total Defense Rankings, 1971-1979

Cowboys – 4.55
Steelers – 5.3
Raiders – 13.2

Total Yards Allowed, 1971-1979

Cowboys – 257.1 y/g
Steelers – 257.9 y/g
Raiders – 290.7 y/g
NFL Average – 296.2 y/g

Oakland just wasn’t up there with the big boys. The Raiders had a soft defense that was the weakness of their team, though their run defense was better than their pass defense, which actually ranked well below the NFL average.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

“It looked like the North’s massacre of the South in the Civil War.”

North deaths – 360,000
South deaths – 258,000

I’m not surprised you suck at history generally like you suck at everything else. A true ass-kicking is what I’ve just given you…..again.

• Joseph Wright
May 19, 2017

“Yeah, Harris was fast and instinctive enough to often fly to the other side of the field and make the tackle on a player who was another defender’s responsibility, not something I’ve seen much of from Tatum.” A year later in SB XI, Tatum came over and helped Skip Thomas WAY better than Harris did for Mark Washington. At halftime of SB X Swann (11 TD catches, All-Pro, Pro Bowl–’75) already had at least 70 receiving yards. At halftime of SB XI, Sammy White (11 TD catches, Rookie of the Year, Pro Bowl–’76) had no catches. Tatum had the speed and smarts to come over and help Thomas and leave Willie Brown (Hall of Fame corner) alone. Despite playing with a Hall of Fame corner (Mel Renfro), Harris didn’t have the smarts to give himself a head start (because obviously he lacked the needed speed) to give Washington over-the-top help from the free safety post on Swann. Swann was SB MVP thanks to Harris. White was a relative nonfactor in SB XI. He made a TD catch in the second half but was devastated by the greatest hit in Super Bowl history (by Tatum, of course) and was quiet the rest of the game.

“Clearly you hadn’t watched even that Super Bowl until I exposed you as a fraud on this Lynn Swann SB X stuff. There’s no evidence you’ve watched most if any of these other, non-SB games either. Unlike you, the people who voted Cliff Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Tatum and selected Harris as the best FS of the decade did watch those games.” I’ve watched the games, liar. People who voted Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Tatum were NFC players and coaches. Players were voted in by their conference peers and coaches. When Chuck Noll had the diaper-wetting whiny fit (“criminal elements”, “Tatum should be banned…”) and branded and stigmatized Tatum with Atkinson, that killed Tatum’s chances Pro Bowl chances in ’76 and ’77 and the Darryl Stingley aftermath eliminated a Pro Bowl for Tatum in ’80. As for Zimmerman and the Hall of Fame committe voting Harris as “The Best Free Safety of the ’70s”… This is the same group of numbskulls who made Cardinals Roger Werli one of four CBs (Willie Brown, Jimmy Johnson and Louis Wright were the others) on the team of the ’70s while leaving off Steelers CB Mel Blount. No way was Werli a better CB than Blount in the ’70s and no way was Harris a better FS than Tatum. The proof is in the performances. Speaking of performances…

Thanks for pointing out “Dallas ranked in the top 10 in defense EVERY YEAR Cliff Harris was a starter. Even Pittsburgh’s Steel Curtain wasn’t in the top 10 every year. The Tatum Raiders were only in the top 10 TWICE.” What you fail to understand, dummy, is that these seasonal stats only measure the teams on paper. The game isn’t played on paper. It’s played on the field. Even if the Steelers ranked below the Cowboys one year or another they STILL had a far superior defense than Dallas. Mike Wagner, Glen Edwards, and Donnie Shell were all better safeties than Cliff Harris. And when the Raiders and Steelers got on the field in the ’70s, they split ten games. The Cowboys could only beat the Steelers when they were still a few players short (Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert). Once the Steelers got those pieces, the Cowboys couldn’t win even ONE game against them. Tatum and the Raiders won four, including three straight victories to close out the series. If “The Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was tougher, harder, and way more violent than the Raiders” was true, Dallas would not have been swept and pimp-slapped by the Steelers four consecutive times form 1975-1979. The Raiders matched up with Pittsburgh and the Cowboys didn’t.

“Oh, and there’s nothing “hard” about hitting someone from behind when they’re far away from the play. That’s wussy ball. The Cowboys’ Doomsday defense was tougher, harder, and way more violent than the Raiders, if not as prone to cheap shots. It’s not even close.” Oh, am I imagining things or did Jack Tatum waste Sammy White from behind? Did he stuff Franco Harris from behind. Did he knock Earl Campbell woozy at the goalline from behind? Did Tatum knock out Riley Odoms from behind. Wussy ball is physically taunting…A KICKER!! How “soft” is that? And then, Lambert picks up Harris (from behind) lifts him off Roy Gerela and bodyslams him to the ground. LMFAO!!!!

As for the stats let’s look for deeper truths:

Did Tatum’s secondaries ever give up Playoff/Super Bowl records?
Did Harris’ secondaries ever give up Playoff/Super Bowl records?
Did a receiver ever score four TDs in a game vs. Tatum’s secondaries?
Did a receiver ever gain over 200 yards in a game vs. a Tatum secondary?
Did the Tatum secondary give up 100+ yards multiple times in playoff competition?
Did Chuck Noll ever complain about Cliff Harris and Charlie Waters?
Did the Raiders ever lose to anyone four straight times in the ’70s?

Clue: Every “no” for Tatum is a “yes” for Harris. Back to where you belong, junior.

• Rasputin
May 19, 2017

You’re STILL spewing crap about SB X, you faceplanting buffoon?!?! LOL! I just quoted a PITTSBURGH paper saying Cliff Harris never got a chance to lay out Swann because Lynn avoided him and the middle of the field all day, instead working on CB Washington on the sideline. Even the Steelers press disagrees with you, moron. And no, you hadn’t watched that game until now or wouldn’t have humiliated yourself by repeatedly insisting the opposite of the truth.

Then again, you do keep repeating other already debunked crap, burying yourself further. Like the Steelers comparisons….

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

Steelers Net Passing Yards Against 1975 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 215
Cowboys – 190

LOL! Looks like the over hyped Jack Tatum should have paid more attention to shutting down the Steelers’ team passing attack.

You lose, little Joey Wrong. The full, non-cherry picked facts say the Cowboys matched up better against the Steelers.

“The Cowboys could only beat the Steelers when they were still a few players short (Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert). ”

You mean like the Raiders did in the 1976 playoffs when the Steelers were missing BOTH of the star 1,000 running backs who had powered their team that year, lol? The Raiders didn’t even play Pittsburgh in 1978 and 1979. Lucky scheduling.

The Cowboys beat the Steelers in 1972 WITHOUT Roger Staubach. Those same Steelers beat the Raiders TWICE that year.

“….Dallas would not have been swept and pimp-slapped by the Steelers four consecutive times form 1975-1979. ”

Wrong. Fluky, close, controversial 4 point games aren’t a “pimp slap”. The Raiders got pimp slapped by the Broncos 4 times in 1977 and 1978, LMFAO! Those included some crushing margins. The Cowboys, on the other hand, obliterated Denver twice, including in the Super Bowl.

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

Cliff Harris stomps Jack Tatum again.

“People who voted Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Tatum were NFC players and coaches. Players were voted in by their conference peers and coaches.”

Their peers and coaches clearly had more respect for Cliff Harris than Jack Tatum.

“When Chuck Noll had the diaper-wetting whiny fit (“criminal elements”, “Tatum should be banned…”) and branded and stigmatized Tatum with Atkinson, that killed Tatum’s chances Pro Bowl chances in ’76 and ’77 and the Darryl Stingley aftermath eliminated a Pro Bowl for Tatum in ’80.”

Proof? Or are you are just desperately grasping at straws again? Remember, you have zero credibility as a result of your many false claims being exposed on this page.

Jack Tatum didn’t even start for the 1980 Oilers, so I’m gonna have to disagree with you. I know he had some interceptions off the bench (like Roy Williams, he had a knack for catching balls that floated his way), but that’s just a few plays. Clearly the coaches didn’t trust him enough in coverage to have him out there every play.

IN 1976 the only AFC FS Pro Bowler was the Steelers’ Glen Edwards who, in your own beloved metric of interceptions, had 6 to Tatum’s 2. That was Edwards’ second straight Pro Bowl season. What makes you feel Jack Tatum deserved to bump Edwards out of his Pro Bowl spot that year? After all….

Pass Defense Ranking, 1976
Steelers – #6
Raiders – #23

Wow, that must sting. In 1977 the AFC FS was Buffalo’s Tony Greene. He had 9 interceptions to Tatum’s 6, and, more importantly….

Pass Defense Ranking, 1977
Bills – #16
Raiders – #22

So why should they have bumped out Greene in favor of Tatum?

You left out how the media voted Cliff Harris first team All Pro 3 times and NEVER voted Tatum first team All Pro, even before that Noll “criminal element” and Stingley excuse you’re whining about.

BTW, I’ve said from the beginning that Tatum hit hard. So did Harris. The difference was that Tatum didn’t go all out on every play like Harris did. And Tatum did make those business decisions like letting Larry Csonka barrel past him into the end zone rather than getting trucked again.

“no way was Harris a better FS than Tatum. The proof is in the performances. ”

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

I agree about the proof being in the performances. That’s how we know Harris was much better than Tatum.

“these seasonal stats only measure the teams on paper. The game isn’t played on paper. It’s played on the field.”

Actually the stats record what happened on the field, you cowardly moron, but here are some ultimate results.

Playoff Wins
Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Championship Record
Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins
Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

Little wonder that HoF voters rightly selected Cliff Harris as the best free safety of the 1970s.

Sure, he was on the best defense of the era, but he was a big part of the reason that defense was so great. You’ve had your ass kicked again.

• Joseph Wright
May 20, 2017

“Steelers Net Passing Yards Against 1975 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 215
Cowboys – 190
LOL! Looks like the over hyped Jack Tatum should have paid more attention to shutting down the Steelers’ team passing attack.”

You fool. For the record, Bradshaw passed for 209 yards in SB X. Any “net passing yard” differences are the works of the defensive line, not Cliff Harris. With that firmly established, what you cowardly and deceitfully hide from the readers is that A) Tatum had two INTs off Bradshaw B) Tatum and the secondary allowed only one TD pass in that game. Tatum was obviously paying attention. Bradshaw’s 215 yards required 25 attempts and 15 completions. Two weeks later, passing against the Harris’ secondary, Bradshaw got 209 passing yards on 19 attempts (over 10 yards per attempt; horrible coverage in any era, much worse in the “pre-chuck” era) and with only nine–NINE–completions (well over 20 yards per completion–horrific). And he threw two TD passes. I’ve seen Tatum and many other free safeties since him come over and nail receivers running sideline patterns. A receiver doesn’t have to come into a safeties area for the safety to hit him. That is, if the safety has the speed to get over there. Obviously, Cliff Harris did not.

“You lose, little Joey Wrong. The full, non-cherry picked facts say the Cowboys matched up better against the Steelers.”

LOL!!! You’re an idiot.
Raiders vs. Steelers in the ’70s: 5-5
Cowboys vs. Steelers in the 70s: 1-4
Raiders vs. Steelers (with Swann, Stallworth and Lambert): 4-2
Cowboys vs. Steelers (with Swann, Stallworth and Cliff Harris Bodyslammer): 0-4

“Sure, he (Cliff Harris) was on the best defense of the era, but he was a big part of the reason that defense was so great.”

Steelers were the best defense of the era. The Cowboys were great on defense in the ’70s because of the line (second-best to the Steel Curtain) and being inflated statistically by playing the ’70s Giants and ’70s Eagles four times a year.

” ‘The Cowboys could only beat the Steelers when they were still a few players short (Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert).’

You mean like the Raiders did in the 1976 playoffs when the Steelers were missing BOTH of the star 1,000 running backs who had powered their team that year, lol?”
Uh…Dumbass? In the ’76 season opener, Franco and Bleier both played and the Raiders beat them, 31-28. In the second game in ’77, Franco and Bleier were back in place and the Raiders beat them again (in Pittsburgh; so much for “lucky scheduling,” numbskull).

“The Cowboys beat the Steelers in 1972 WITHOUT Roger Staubach. Those same Steelers beat the Raiders TWICE that year.”

The Staubach-less Cowboys beat the Steelers WITHOUT Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert. That’s the ONLY time they beat them. They could have beat that Steelers team with Steve Pelluer. The ’72 Steelers snuck up on the Raiders in that season opener (who expected anything from the Steelers going into ’72?) and then benefited from the “immacculate reception” in the playoffs. Frenchy Fuqua touched the ball going back to Franco Harris, which was illegal in ’72. But the game was in Pittsburgh and the refs didn’t want a riot so raiders got shafted. Still highly controversial. Speaking of controversial…

“‘…swept and pimp-slapped by the Steelers four consecutive times form 1975-1979.’

Wrong. Fluky, close, controversial 4 point games aren’t a “pimp slap.'”

Super Bowl X: Steelers sacked Staubach seven times, forced Cowboys tight end Jean Fugett to quit, Lambert bodyslams Cliff Harris, and Mel Blount had Golden Richards whining and ultimately leaving the game with broken ribs. Nothing fluky or controversial about that Cowboy loss and definitely a 21-17 pimp-slapping

1977: Steelers beat Cowboys 28-13. Franco runs for 179 on 29 carries, including a 61-yd TD right up the middle–where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be–as Pittsburgh piles up 228 rushing yards. Swann and Stallworth burn the Harris secondary for two TDs. Nothing fluky, it wasn’t close or controversial about Dallas loss. Definite pimp-slapping.

Super Bowl XIII: Steelers sack Staubach five times, Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth scorch Harris’ secondary for Super Bowl records, Mike Wagner (ANOTHER better safety than Cliff Harris from the ’70s) breaks Drew Pearson’s ribs and forces him out of game as Cowboys make game look “close” in fourth quarter (They were trailing 35-17). Nothing fluky, close score is cosmetic not real, another pimp-slapping.

1979: Steelers win 14-3. This is getting boring. Staubach knocked out of game by L.C. Greenwood. Franco has 48-yd TD up middle–where the hell is that free safety?–to push his game total to 102 for the day. Nothing fluky, controversial and the game isn’t close. Another pimp-slapping.

And you say the Cowboys matched up better than the Raiders vs. the Steelers in the ’70s? You are a moron.

• Rasputin
May 20, 2017

You failed to answer why the media never voted Tatum first team All Pro even before that Noll “criminal element” comment excuse you gave happened, while they did vote Cliff Harris first team All Pro 3 times (quick, think of another excuse!), among many other things you’ve dodged in cowardly fashion. As for your idiocy on net yardage, so not only does the wussy Joseph Wright not know what a “body slam” is, but he’s not familiar with the concept of a coverage sack. Got it. They measure stats that way for a reason.

“For the record, Bradshaw passed for 209 yards in SB X.”

So? He passed for 215 yards against the Raiders the game before, and beat them by 6 points while SB X was only a 4 point game. You lose either way.

“Tatum had two INTs off Bradshaw B) Tatum and the secondary allowed only one TD pass in that game.”

Sure, and I’ve said before INTs are legitimate feathers in one’s cap. But those are just two plays. Overall the Cowboys held Bradshaw to 47% completion while he completed 62% of his passes against the Raiders. 62%! That means play after play the Dallas secondary was doing a better job covering the Steelers receivers than the Raiders were.

What’s hilarious is that those WERE THE ONLY TWO PLAYOFF INTERCEPTIONS OF JACK TATUM’S CAREER! CLIFF HARRIS HAD SIX POSTSEASON INTERCEPTIONS. Since we’ve established you suck at math, that means Harris had three times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum, and Harris wasn’t even the Cowboys’ main interception guy. He was the guy who disrupted things with jarring shots to help create interceptions for others, especially Charlie Waters (who still holds the career NFL playoff record).

As for overall in the playoffs, you cowardly, cherry-picking moron, including interceptions….

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt (you were saying… lol?)

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

And of course….

Conference Championship Record, 1971-1979

Cowboys – 4-2
Raiders – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

You and Tatum just keep losing. We’ve also established that y’all lose overall with regular season and common opponents stats, but as for the most important common opponent of the decade:

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

“I’ve seen Tatum and many other free safeties since him come over and nail receivers running sideline patterns.”

So did Cliff Harris, you lying moron. That’s one reason the Cowboys had such a better pass defense than the Raiders, giving up fewer yards and holding opponents to a lower completion percentage, despite cornerback not being the Dallas secondary’s biggest strength in the second half of the decade the way the safeties were (0 Dallas CB Pro Bowl selections after 1973, until Everson Walls in 1981). If it’s a single WR getting a lot of yards it’s probably the fault of a CB. If the whole team is getting a lot of yards by spreading it around, you have to look at the safeties first, and question their reaction time, recognition, intelligence, skill, hustle, etc..

“Raiders vs. Steelers (with Swann, Stallworth and Lambert): 4-2”

LOL! You’re still counting when Stallworth was a backup? The Raiders got to play the Steelers a lot more than the Cowboys did, or Dallas would have racked up more wins too. But the Tatum Raiders DIDN’T play the Steelers at all in 1978 or 1979, after the chuck rule change, and only played them once after Stallworth become a full time starter, when the Steelers got off to that terrible 4-4 start (though their losses to the three other teams were all by bigger margins). The Cowboys did play better against Pittsburgh in years when they were a common opponent of both Dallas and Oakland, which happened three seasons.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

Those are the fact, little Joey Wrong. They won’t change. Read them and weep.

“Steelers were the best defense of the era.”

Arguable either way, but it’s close.

Defense

Average Total Defense Rankings, 1971-1979

Cowboys – 4.55
Steelers – 5.3
Raiders – 13.2

Total Yards Allowed, 1971-1979

Cowboys – 257.1 y/g
Steelers – 257.9 y/g
Raiders – 290.7 y/g
NFL Average – 296.2 y/g

On the other hand, the Raiders weren’t even close, LMFAO. They had an average defense overall that was having to carry a terrible pass defense. Tatum’s secondary was the weakest part of the team. Period.

“being inflated statistically by playing the ’70s Giants and ’70s Eagles four times a year.”

Already debunked, you lying, cowardly moron.

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

The NFC East was much better than the weak AFC West, and had better QB play.

“In the ’76 season opener, Franco and Bleier both played and the Raiders beat them, 31-28.”

By a whole 3 points, being gutted for 28 in the process. It’s hard to beat the same team twice in one year in the NFL. At the very least the Raiders were lucky to not have to find out if they could do it in the 1976 playoffs. With both Steelers stars out that game was basically over before it began.

That said, the Steelers did beat the Raiders twice in 1972 (Dallas beat Pittsburgh that year even without Staubach), and the Broncos beat the Raiders FOUR TIMES(!) in 1977,1978. For perspective, NO TEAM EVER BEAT THE 1970s COWBOYS TWICE IN ONE REGULAR SEASON. Ever.

The 1978 Raiders lost twice to AFC West opponent Seattle. Oakland got SWEPT BY THE SEAHAWKS! The freaking SEAHAWKS, LMFAO! It’s not like Seattle was a playoff team either. What do you think the Steelers or for that matter the Cowboys would have done to Oakland if the Raiders had played either of those teams that year? It wouldn’t have been pretty. Likely much worse than the beating the Cowboys gave the 1980 Raiders.

“In the second game in ’77, Franco and Bleier were back in place…”

And weren’t the same team, as I’ve shown. Bleier dropped from 1,036 at 4.7 y/c in that magical 1976 season to 465 yards at 3.4 y/c in 1977. Those are just the facts. The Tatum Raiders never had to play the Steelers again. That was more lucky scheduling for Oakland, since the Tatum Raiders declined and were never good enough to make the playoffs again after that 1977 loss to Craig Morton’s Broncos.

LOL! I love how you spend all those lines giving whiny excuses for the Raiders defeats, while ignoring actual, documented controversies in SB XIII that aren’t rationally deniable. Hypocrite.

I’ve already vanquished you with the overall stats for regular season, playoff, and common opponent games, but if you want to cherry-pick individual games for emphasis I can play and beat you at that game too.

1978 – In their second loss to the Seahawks that year (lol), Oakland surrendered 270 yards and 2 TDs to Jim Zorn. Seven different players caught passes, five had over 30 yards receiving, and 3 different players had over 50 yards receiving, a sign of likely weakness at safety.

In their first loss to Seattle that year, a 27-7 drubbing, the Seahawks showed they could whip Oakland on the ground, pounding them for 204 net rushing yards and 3 TDs. To echo your question, where was the free safety? That was with guys like Sherman Smith and David Sims at RB too; it’s not like Seattle was sending Emmitt Smith out there, or the beating would have been much, much worse. Of course these games were far more routine with Oakland than Dallas, since the Cowboys also had a much better run defense than the Raiders.

Now THOSE are pimp slappings. Where was the Raiders’ pride, if they were really as good as you claim they were? How could they let teams like the Seahawks and Broncos beat them multiple times in the same seasons?

I didn’t run up behind you and pull you down Lambert style here. I picked you up in the air and body slammed you.

• Joseph Wright
May 22, 2017

“What’s hilarious is that those WERE THE ONLY TWO PLAYOFF INTERCEPTIONS OF JACK TATUM’S CAREER! CLIFF HARRIS HAD SIX POSTSEASON INTERCEPTIONS. Since we’ve established you suck at math, that means Harris had three times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum, and Harris wasn’t even the Cowboys’ main interception guy. He was the guy who disrupted things with jarring shots to help create interceptions for others, especially Charlie Waters (who still holds the career NFL playoff record).”

“Net passing yards” are all about sacking the QB. The Dallas Cowboys pass rush in the ’70s was hardly driven by great coverage. The point of the matter is Tatum intercepted Bradshaw in the playoffs and Harris couldn’t even get ONE pick off of Bradshaw. I suck at math? is that right? You said the Cowboys matched up better than the Raiders vs the Steelers in the ’70s. Yet in 70s matchups the Raiders split ten matchups with Pittsburgh and Dallas only won one in five. Out west, school taught us five is greater than one. Additionally, when the Steeler got their team fully stocked (i.e., Swann, Stallworth, Harris bodyslammer Lambert) the Raiders were 4-2 against the Steelers. The Steelers “better matchup,” Dallas, was 0-4. So where you went to school they taught you zero is better than four? SMH.

And quit deceiving the readers. Waters is TIED for the all-time playoff INT lead with three other players. The total was enhanced by the Cowboys pass rush abusing the witness protection unit known as the Bears offensive line as Waters was given three gifts from that All-time great QB, Bob Avellini in ’77. Thank God Vernon Perry wiped Waters off the record books two years later with his four-INT performance vs. Dan Fouts.

“NO TEAM EVER BEAT THE 1970s COWBOYS TWICE IN ONE REGULAR SEASON. Ever.” That’s ONLY because Pittsburgh went to the AFC instead of staying in the NFC East.

“1978 – In their second loss to the Seahawks that year (lol), Oakland surrendered 270 yards and 2 TDs to Jim Zorn. Seven different players caught passes, five had over 30 yards receiving, and 3 different players had over 50 yards receiving, a sign of likely weakness at safety.” In ’78 Tatum was playing with three new people in the secondary: Lester Hayes (still learning to play CB after a collegiate career at LB/SS), Charles Phillips (a career backup), and the bust combo of Neal Colzie/Monte Jackson (Colzie gave up the Sammy White TD and Bob Lee garbage time yards in SB XI; Jackson’s pass interference penalty helped lose the ’78 season opener to the Broncos and he–another one of your ridiculous man-crushes– never was a factor as a Raider). At least Seattle was a winning team. Don’t get me started with the Cowboys losing to non-winning teams during the ’70s (Falcons–’76, Cardinals–’77, Eagles–’74; 1975–Green Bay AND Kansas City) .

“Where was the Raiders’ pride, if they were really as good as you claim they were?” Lack of pride? Really? How could the Cowboys let the Steelers pimp-slap them four consecutive times in five years and twice on the big stage with the whole world watching? And this lasted until 1985! TEN YEARS! Dallas took it with no resistance.

What are the “controversies” of Super Bowl XIII? A pass interference call on Lynn Swann? That put the ball at the Dallas 22. Big deal. Hold them to a field goal. Don’t let Franco go 22 yards for a touchdown on the next play. Tell your free safety don’t look for a place to hide and make the tackle.

As for Tatum not getting the AP votes for first team All-Pro? Writers were set in their ways and could not understand or accept that the game was changing: the scrawny, scrappy, unathletic safety (Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson, Cliff Harris) was on the way out and the strong, athletic, intimidating enforcers (Tatum, Donnie Shell, Ken Houston) were taking over and changing the game. Larry Wilson was voted to ONE Pro Bowl and ONE All-pro team in the ’70s–an ENTIRE decade– and he was given a spot on the team of the ’70s by these numbskull writers. Tatum, Shell, and Houston–each as individuals–were far superior than the three above who had more “honors.”

“Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%”

THIS is cowardly cherry-picking. This is the ONLY way (and the most cowardly way) you can say Dallas played Pittsburgh better than the Raiders. Totally disregarding ’73, ’74, and ’76. It doesn’t matter, though. The Cowboys lost all their other ’70s matchups to the Steelers while the Raiders beat the Steelers five of the next eight, including the last three straight in the ’70s.

The Broncos rode a fluky wave from in ’77 and ’78. Stabler and Tatum straightened it out in ’79.

You have never explained why Swann could just dominate the Dallas secondary (three TDs in four games two 100-yd games) and was relatively quiet vs. Tatum’s secondary.

Why was it so easy for the Raiders to win three straight vs. the same Steelers squad (with Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert) that Dallas couldn’t even win ONE game from?

The Raiders had four huge victories vs. Pittsburgh in the ’70s (33-14–1973; 17-0–1974; 24-7–1976; 16-7–1977) and Dallas had none.

• Rasputin
May 22, 2017

“The point of the matter is Tatum intercepted Bradshaw in the playoffs and Harris couldn’t even get ONE pick off of Bradshaw.”

Cliff Harris has THREE TIMES AS MANY career playoff interceptions as Jack Tatum, moron. LMFAO! Talk about cowardly cherry-picking. The closest thing you had to a legitimate talking point was Tatum’s interception totals (which I’ve said from the beginning are noteworthy, if less important than the other stats I’ve posted), but you’ve buried that under piles of whiny posts crying “regular seasons stats don’t matter”, and now it turns out that Harris absolutely crushes Tatum in postseason interceptions (and every other meaningful postseason metric). Why are you still here, little Joey Wrong? How many ways can one person possibly humiliate himself? You must be going for the record.

“I suck at math? is that right?”

Yes.

“‘Net passing yards’” are all about sacking the QB. The Dallas Cowboys pass rush in the ’70s was hardly driven by great coverage. ”

Then why did their pass defense fall from 3rd in 1979 to 16th in their first year without Harris with the same pass rush still in place? The great Dallas pass defense was driven by both great line and great safety play.

“You said the Cowboys matched up better than the Raiders vs the Steelers in the ’70s.”

I said Dallas performed better than Oakland did against the Steelers in years where Pittsburgh was actually a common opponent, so you suck at reading too. See?

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

The Raiders never played the Steelers in 1978 or 1979 when they were at their best, while the Cowboys didn’t get to play them in 1976 when they were a walking MASH unit (like the Raiders did twice) and only once got to play them from 1971-1974 (beating Pittsburgh in 1972 without Roger Staubach, while the Steelers beat the Raiders twice that year). Oakland played them a lot more than the Cowboys did earlier in the decade and in total, so blind decade records would be apples and oranges. That’s one of those math concepts you apparently never learned.

“And quit deceiving the readers. Waters is TIED for the all-time playoff INT lead with three other players.”

I never said otherwise and haven’t posted anything deceptive, liar. The key word in your sentence is “lead”, though I’d go with “career record”. You can’t spin that away, you cherry-picking, cowardly moron.

“That’s ONLY because Pittsburgh went to the AFC instead of staying in the NFC East.”

Huh? Pittsburgh wasn’t in either team’s division. Multiple teams, including the Seawhawks(lol!) and the Broncos beat the Raiders multiple times in the same regular season. No team ever did that to the 1970s Cowboys, despite the NFC East being much tougher than the weak AFC West.

(your lame excuse for the Raiders getting torched by the Seahawks in 1978): “In ’78 Tatum was playing with three new people in the secondary: Lester Hayes (still learning to play CB after a collegiate career at LB/SS), Charles Phillips (a career backup), and the bust combo of Neal Colzie/Monte Jackson”

So you’re saying that Raiders pass defense success was contingent on players OTHER than Tatum. Got it. That explains why the Raiders didn’t fall any in pass defense ranking when Tatum left, and even ROSE slightly while winning the Super Bowl that first year without him. You know, basically the opposite of what happened with the Cowboys when Cliff Harris retired.

BTW, for the record those guys you listed have a combined 7 career Pro Bowls, including both the previous two years in Monte Jackson’s case, compared to 0 career Pro Bowls for starting 1970s Cowboys CBs after Mel Renfro became a backup mid-decade. Granted things change from year to year, but it’s still worth noting.

“At least Seattle was a winning team. Don’t get me started with the Cowboys losing to non-winning teams during the ’70s (Falcons–’76, Cardinals–’77, Eagles–’74; 1975–Green Bay AND Kansas City) .”

Seattle was barely a “winning team” at 9-7, thanks to them sweeping the Raiders in 1978, lol. Two of those Cowboys opponents you list were .500 teams. The Raiders lost to LOSING teams like the 1971 Patriots, 1972 Broncos, 1975 Chiefs, and 1979 Chiefs, not even counting their various losses (e.g. 1979 Jets) and ties (e.g 1977 Chargers) to teams at or hovering around .500, or their squeakers against losing teams.

But trumping that is the fact that the SEAHAWKS ALSO SWEPT THE RAIDERS IN 1979, LMFAO!! The coastal birds went 9-7 that year too. The first game was a 27-10 ass-stomping where Seattle torched Tatum’s defense for 316(!) net passing yards, 3 passing TDs, and 0 INTs, completing 64% of their passes.

The Seahawks torched Oakland again in the rematch for ANOTHER 314 yards, completing 66% of their passes.

Oh wow….

“How could the Cowboys let the Steelers pimp-slap them….twice on the big stage with the whole world watching?”

Those were both 4 point games, not “pimp-slaps”, the second one warped by controversy (for details read what’s already been posted elsewhere; I shouldn’t have to repeat myself on every topic; it’s tangential to the debate anyway). THE RAIDERS GOT PIMP-SLAPPED BY THE BRONCOS AND FREAKING SEAHAWKS YEAR AFTER YEAR!

Just….go away….Joseph. Don’t make me start to feel sorry for you.

“The Broncos rode a fluky wave from in ’77 and ’78. Stabler and Tatum straightened it out in ’79.”

They couldn’t straighten out those Seahawks or even make the playoffs, lol.

“As for Tatum not getting the AP votes for first team All-Pro? Writers were set in their ways and could not understand or accept that the game was changing: the scrawny, scrappy, unathletic safety (Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson, Cliff Harris) was on the way out and the strong, athletic, intimidating enforcers”

So you’re saying All Pro voters DIDN’T like strong, athletic players, lol? Any proof for this ridiculously stupid claim?

They did like hustle and talent, and Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, more athletic, and roughly twice as good as Jack Tatum. Little wonder that he made twice as many Pro Bowls and won twice as many Super Bowls.

I didn’t just run up behind you and pull you down from behind Lambert style. I picked you up and body-slammed you. Again.

• Joseph Wright
May 24, 2017

As usual, you cowardly ducked the questions and attempted to deceive the readers. Pathetic.
“Cliff Harris has THREE TIMES AS MANY career playoff interceptions as Jack Tatum, moron. LMFAO! Talk about cowardly cherry-picking. The closest thing you had to a legitimate talking point was Tatum’s interception totals (which I’ve said from the beginning are noteworthy…”

Razzie’s deception continues with this: “The Raiders never played the Steelers in 1978 or 1979 when they were at their best, while the Cowboys didn’t get to play them in 1976 when they were a walking MASH unit (like the Raiders did twice) and only once got to play them from 1971-1974 (beating Pittsburgh in 1972 without Roger Staubach, while the Steelers beat the Raiders twice that year). Oakland played them a lot more than the Cowboys did earlier in the decade and in total, so blind decade records would be apples and oranges.” There is no apples and oranges issue. The Raiders were a better matchup for the Steelers than the Cowboys in the 70s. No one is buying your crap on this, Razzie. Watch this, readers. No doubt, Razzie’ll duck these questions: As for the Steelers being a MASH Unit in 1976, which Steelers missed the ’76 season opener when the Raiders beat them? Which Steelers on defense were injured during the season? Which Steeler defenders missed the AFC Title game vs. the Raiders when Stabler pasted them (the Steelers absolute best defensive year, nothing else comes close) for an efficient 24 points? Watch Razzie duck ALL these questions, being the cowardly chicken-hearted wussy he (she?) is! Here is a factoid far more telling about how the Raiders matched up with the Steelers in contrast to the Cowboys: In SB X, Mean Joe Greene missed the entire second half, giving way to Steve Furness (who?) and then three-man fronts the rest of the game. Pittsburgh continued to pimp-slap the Cowboys (Lambert bodyslams Harris; rest of Steel Curtain sacks Staubach seven times; Steeler hitting makes Cowboy tight end Jean Fugett quit–What?!? In the SUPER BOWL?!?; Golden Richards leaves game with broken ribs–and zero catches) and take the title, anyway. In SB XIII, Stallworth misses the second half with leg cramps (I guess his calves got sore running circles around Cliff Harris, including that 75-yd TD where he dusts Harris for the last 40 yards. LOL!!!) and Steelers starting tight end Bennie Cunningham doesn’t play at all. Doesn’t matter, Swann burns Harris (yes, Harris. It’s on film) for a leaping catch (damn! Harris couldn’t run OR jump) and Steelers minus two offensive starters STILL take home the title.

Seems to me, when a guy is supposedly the “Best Free Safety of the ’70s,” records–especially playoff records–and season highs don’t fall. Tatum-led secondaries only sprung a leak once in the playoffs (Haven Moses). But even then, that performance didn’t put them in the record books and it certainly didn’t put the guy or guys who made that record into the Hall of Fame. Haven Moses is ALL you can hang on Tatum, Razzie. The regular season team yardage totals mean nothing. The Raiders regularly made the playoffs. The random Seattle games don’t make for sleepless nights. No records nor league season-highs were set. What the coward neglects to mention is that the Raiders defense gave up fewer points than Dallas three straight years during Tatum’s time. And, he did that without a quality front seven.

“So you’re saying that Raiders pass defense success was contingent on players OTHER than Tatum?”

Obviously, you know little about football because no matter how awesome a free safety is, three inexperienced DBs at the other spots combined with a questionable front seven means trouble. Lester Hayes was still learning the CB position in ’78. He was a liability until the 80s. Neal Colzie and Monte Jackson were busts at the other corner. Your slobbering over Jackson is embarrassing. Charles Phillips was a career backup. Harris never had to deal with three new faces in any one year. “BTW, for the record those guys you listed have a combined 7 career Pro Bowls, including both the previous two years in Monte Jackson’s case.” To that point in time, it was a combined TWO Pro Bowls. Lester Hayes from ’77-’79 was nowhere near the ’80s Lester Hayes. ALL Hayes’ Pro Bowls were in the ’80s. You aren’t slick enough with that lie you tried to pull, Razzie. You’re too stupid to dupe readers like that.

With Harris anchoring the Cowboys secondary, records and season-highs fell quite regularly:
NFC Title game ’72, Charley Taylor: 146 yards, seven catches, two TDs–Established an NFC Title game record (yards)

1973 regular season, Harold Jackson: 238 yards, seven catches, four TDs (63, 16, 67, 36 with Harris and Waters trailing–badly)–Single-game season-high (yards and TD catches) for ’73

Super Bowl X, Lynn Swann: 161 yards, four catches, TD–Super Bowl record (yards; yards per catch). Bradshaw averages 23 yards per completion–Super Bowl record

NFC Playoffs, Harold Jackson: 116 yards, six catches– ’76 playoffs single-game high (yards)

Super Bowl XIII–Stallworth: 115, three catches, two TDs–Super Bowl records (yards in one half; longest TD catch–with Harris trailing the last 40 yards, LOL!!!) Swann: 124 yards, seven catches, TD–Super Bowl record (first teammates to each have 100+ yds receiving in same game) AND…Bradshaw: first-ever 300-yd passing game; four TD passes. Name one regular season or post-season game besides the Morton-to-Moses lightning-in-a-bottle-fluke-job where a Tatum-led secondary sprang a leak to an individual player? Or gave up season single-game highs or playoff-records in passing/receiving yards or passing/receiving TDs. You can’t!

“So you’re saying All Pro voters DIDN’T like strong, athletic players, lol? Any proof for this ridiculously stupid claim?”
The proof is in the safety selections for the ’70s team. Only Ken Houston was allowed in. The overrated Harris, Dick Anderson, and Larry freakin’ Wilson were the others. The Wilson placement was the biggest joke. He only played–70s-wise–from 1970-72. He made a single Pro Bowl and All-Pro selection in 1970. One good year is enough to get a spot to represent 10 years? Tatum made a far greater impact than Wilson in the 70s and once Stabler and Tatum detroned the Dolphins in ’74 you never heard from Anderson again. Harris’ burnings were well-documented on the big stage.

How clueless and stupid are you? Seems to me, when the Steelers pimp-slapped the Cowboys in SB X, Dallas–if they had any balls– would have circled ANY rematch with the Steelers from that point on. However…

1977: With SB X still fresh in most football fans heads, The Steelers pound the Cowboys for 228 rushing yards. Franco does the most damage with 179, including a 61-yd TD right up the middle–where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be. Swann and Stallworth each invade the endzone on the Harris-led secondary.

Super Bowl XIII: With SB X STILL fresh in most football fans heads, the Steelers pimp-slap the Cowboys again (five more sacks of Staubach; Mike Wagner–ANOTHER better safety than Cliff Harris–puts Drew Pearson out with broken ribs; Bradshaw AND Swann AND Stallworth dominate the Harris-led secondary)

1979: This is getting boring. With SB X AND XIII in everyone’s mind, Pittsburgh pimp-slaps Dallas–AGAIN–14-3 ( Staubach knocked out of game; Franco goes up middle–where the free safety is SUPPOSED to be–again for a 48 yard TD, pushing his final game total to 102 yards.
All of us readers weren’t born yesterday, Razzie. Even if we were, we stayed up all last night to know that when a team beats you four straight times over a five-year span, they are just better. Look at all the transcendent “Teams of the Decade” vs. Dallas:
1960s Green Bay (Lombardi’s Packers, Super Bowl era), 2-0
1970s Pittsburgh (fully stocked–i.e., Swann, Stallworth, and Lambert), 4-0
1980s San Francisco (fully stocked–i.e., Montana, Lott, Wright, Williamson, Hacksaw Reynolds, Fred Dean) 4-0

So, the Cowboys were 0-10 vs the best as well as 0-1 against the 70s Raiders. The Dallas was the ultimate “paper champ.” Yes, their REGULAR SEASON stats looked good but when they matched up against other teams with a rightful claim to being the best they got slapped aside every time. Sorry, Razzie. The ’72 win vs. Pittsburgh (minus Swann, Stallworth, and Harris bodyslammer Lambert) and the ’80 run-up-the-score-job on the DeBerg-led 49ers without Lott, Wright, Williamson, Reynolds and Dean (not to mention Joe Montana) are not impressive. The Raiders were blown out by Lombardi’s Packers but split ten games with the ’70s Steelers and beat the ’80s ‘Niners two out of three times.

Back to where you were, wussy.

• Rasputin
May 24, 2017

Cliff Harris had THREE TIMES AS MANY playoff interceptions as Jack Tatum, LMFAO, and you’ve been reduced two squirming around and focusing on one opposing QB (one!), you lying, cowardly wuss. Even regarding Bradshaw we’ve established that he worked on CBs (e.g. Mark Washington), avoiding Cliff Harris. You’ve been absolutely crushed on every front, little Joey Wrong. It’s over. You’re finished. Here’s the only new thing I noticed you post:

“the Raiders defense gave up fewer points than Dallas three straight years during Tatum’s time.”

The Cowboys defense gave up fewer points EVERY OTHER YEAR, LOL! In fact the Harris Cowboys ranked in the top 10 in fewest points allowed every year but one (when it ranked 12th), while the Raiders fell out of the top 10 four years….almost half of Tatum’s tenure. That’s despite Dallas playing in the tough NFC East while the Raiders got to face the weak ass AFC West. And the Raiders pass defense was the weakness of their team. Even though I’ve kicked your ass all over this thread in every way possible so far, and body slammed you repeatedly (not run up behind you and pulled you down Lambert style), Joseph, I appreciate that you still occasionally venture out and make a new claim. You invariably faceplant, giving me yet another opportunity to mop the floor with you.

The Tatum Raiders got pimp-slapped year after year by the Craig Morton Broncos and the SEAHAWKS. The freaking SEAHAWKS! 314 passing yards….316 passing yards….270 yards by Zorn….204 rushing yards…27-10….27-7….all by the Seahawks. Four losses in back to back years to BOTH the Seahawks and Broncos each. Eight losses(!) to those teams over a three year period. That’s humiliating for Oakland.

“The proof is in the safety selections for the ’70s team.”

The only thing you’ve proved is that you’re a terrible judge of talent who can’t build a coherent argument.

“With Harris anchoring the Cowboys secondary, records and season-highs fell quite regularly: NFC Title game ’72, Charley Taylor: 146 yards, seven catches, two TDs–Established an NFC Title game record (yards)”

Wait…didn’t you just post a paragraph of whiny excuses blaming Raiders failures on everyone else in the secondary but Tatum, lol? Did you already forget sourced stuff I’ve posted here about Charlie Waters being worked on at corner in that game (and others you’ve cited)? That had nothing to do with Cliff Harris, you hypocritical moron. The rest of your drivel has also already been debunked.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

All these stats annihilating you aren’t surprising when one remembers seeing Tatum make a business decision by declining to tackle Larry Csonka as he rumbled into the end zone in the AFC Championship game, the kind of thing I’ve never seen the always hustling Harris do. Harris was tougher, smarter, more athletic, and better than Tatum. that’s why he made twice as many Pro Bowls and won twice as many Super Bowls as Tatum.

It’s why the Cowboys missed Harris more than the Raiders missed Tatum. Way more. Not even close.

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

The Cowboys’ line was awesome. But so were their safeties. That’s why together Doomsday was on top while the Raiders’ defense ranked low. The truth is that the 1970s Raiders’ weakest spot was their pass defense. The Tatum Raiders had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL, while the Harris Cowboys had one of the best.

Pro Bowls

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections

Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Champion Records As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

You lose again, Joey. Cliff Harris was rightly chosen as the best FS of the decade.

• Joseph Wright
May 25, 2017

“Even regarding Bradshaw we’ve established that he worked on CBs (e.g. Mark Washington), avoiding Cliff Harris.” What do you mean “we’ve,” liar? Bradshaw completed his first connection with Swann in SB X because Harris was late (i.e., he was too slow) coming over to help Mark Washington, Stallworth’s first TD in SB XIII was because Harris was late coming over to help Aaron Kyle (too slow; and he then cheap-shots Stallworth in the process), Stallworth’s second TD in SB XIII results from his outrunning Harris the last 40 yards to complete a SB-record-tying pass play (too slow), and Bradshaw’s final record fourth TD pass of SB XIII was when Swann beats Harris to the back of the endzone (too slow) and then out-jumps him for the catch (Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson made a movie with a title about this).

However, readers, what did I tell ya!! He ducked ALL the questions in typical cowardly fashion that only a wuss like Razzie could do. The questions again:

As for the Steelers being a MASH Unit in 1976, which Steelers missed the ’76 season opener when the Raiders beat them? Which Steelers on defense were injured during the season? Which Steeler defenders missed the AFC Title game vs. the Raiders when Stabler pasted them (the Steelers absolute best defensive year, nothing else comes close) for an efficient 24 points?

“The tough NFC East?” The NFC East became a beast in the ’80s. It was a weak division in the ’70s. The Cowboys were paper champions who put up good regular season stats but when matched up against elite competition they generally lost and then left their fans (like you) wondering what happened and then fabricated weak, fraudulent excuses instead of just admitting that Dallas got their ass whupped. Apparently, Dallas is still in denial about the pimp-slappings at the hands of Pittsburgh, the Super Bowl loss to Baltimore, the beat-down that the Raiders gave them in ’74, and the rightful Hall of Fame denials of Chuck Howley, Charlie Waters, and the highly overrated Cliff Harris.

The regular season stats are an illusion, Razzie. Assuming that the Cowboys had a “better” secondary than the Raiders and the Raiders pass coverage was the weakness of the team, why when they matched up in ’74 was Staubach unable to complete even HALF of his passes or even ONE TD pass vs. Tatum’s bunch (with the blocking of Rayfield Wright, Ralph Neely and pass catching talents of Drew Pearson, Billy Joe DuPree, and Golden Richards at his disposal)? Meanwhile, Stabler carves the “better” Harris secondary with ease. Even 80-year-old George Blanda chimes in with a TD pass, to combine with Stabler for three invasions of the Dallas endzone at the expense of Harris. Charlie Smith beats Harris down the middle badly and Harris doesn’t react to Branch at all (Blanda looks at Branch the whole way), resulting in a 28-yd. scorching. Pathetic.

The Razzie deception continues…”‘At least Seattle was a winning team. Don’t get me started with the Cowboys losing to non-winning teams during the ’70s (Falcons–’76, Cardinals–’77, Eagles–’74; 1975–Green Bay AND Kansas City) .'”

“Seattle was barely a ‘winning team’ at 9-7, thanks to them sweeping the Raiders in 1978, lol. Two of those Cowboys opponents you list were .500 teams.” The ’74 Eagles and ’77 Cardinals were .500 teams thanks to their victories over the Cowboys, lol.

And this deceptive crap about, ” Multiple teams, including the Seawhawks(lol!) and the Broncos beat the Raiders multiple times in the same regular season. No team ever did that to the 1970s Cowboys…” The Redskins beat the Cowboys twice in ’72. You’re not slick, numbskull. The “regular season” tag is the ONLY way you can spin that. But you can’t weasel out of the truth. And the second Washington victory (NFC Title Game) was no “fluke” or “controversy.” Like the Steelers , they had Cowboys limping off the field left and right like wounded Confederate soldiers. LOL!!!

And show me a season when the Stabler-Tatum Raiders lost to a team with 4 or less wins, then we’ll talk. In 1975, Green Bay beat the Cowboys–IN DALLAS–for one of their four wins that year. LMFAO!!!

Throughout the ’70s, the Raiders regularly beat NFC teams that topped the Cowboys for division or conference championships (Washington 2-0; Cardinals 1-0; Vikings 3-1–Cumulative record: 6-1). In similar situations throughout the same period Dallas was 1-4 vs. Pittsburgh; 1-1 vs. Kansas City; 1-1 vs. Miami; Denver 2-0–Cumulative record: 5-6. Of course, against the Raiders they were 0-1.
The Cowboys always managed to look good, statistically, on paper, but when it came to on-field matchups their performances were less successful and many of their overrated “stars”–like Cliff Harris–were beaten and exposed.

“’With Harris anchoring the Cowboys secondary, records and season-highs fell quite regularly: NFC Title game ’72, Charley Taylor: 146 yards, seven catches, two TDs–Established an NFC Title game record (yards)’

Wait…didn’t you just post a paragraph of whiny excuses blaming Raiders failures on everyone else in the secondary but Tatum, lol?” Cliff Harris never had to work behind a studless front seven or with three new faces in the secondary, ever.
Where’s your reading comprehension? What part of “records and season-highs fell quite regularly (under Harris)” don’t you understand? Name one record that a single QB or receiver/tight end ever set or established on a Tatum-led secondary…We’re waiting. junior. You can’t! And, more to the point, these torchings happened to Harris-led secondaries IN THE PLAYOFFS!! That’s not cherry-picking, that’s the big stage, national TV. Harris was embarrassed on the big stage, burnt and cremated, MULTIPLE times! You only have the lightning-in-the-bottle, fluky ’77 Broncos Haven Moses man-crush to hang Tatum with. Can you give me another one in the playoffs?

Back to where you belong, junior.

• Rasputin
May 25, 2017

What….no comments about Jack Tatum’s interception total, lol? Did finding out Cliff Harris had three times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum put a damper on that?

“The regular season stats are an illusion, Razzie.”

How about the playoff stats, or the common opponent stats, little Joey Wrong, where the Cowboys and their pass defense also pimp-slap the Raiders? How much longer are you going to sit there squirming and crying in your lost position, you wuss? Man up and admit you were wrong with some class and dignity.

“beats Harris to the back of the endzone (too slow) and then out-jumps him for the catch (Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson made a movie with a title about this).”

Oh I see. You don’t like Harris, Larry Wilson, or Dick Anderson because they’re white, and you’re some kind of pitiful racial bigot. That’s why you singled Tatum, Donnie Shell, and Ken Houston (all black men) out for praise earlier. Well perhaps the leading HoF safety candidate from the 1990s/early 2000s is John Lynch, a white man. The hard hitting Pro Bowler Scott Case (actually built a lot like Harris, but maybe a little skinnier) was the best safety in Atlanta Falcons history (signed by the 1995 Cowboys; watch how he devastated the Steelers’ receiving corps in SB XXX even at the end of his career). You don’t need blazing speed at safety. That’s why Charlie Waters struggled at CB but became a 3 time Pro Bowler at safety. It’s not like Tatum had blazing speed either. Tatum was a lot like Dallas safety Roy Williams, except not as good. There haven’t been many white Pro Bowl running backs the past couple of decades, but Larry Csonka sure made Jack Tatum his bitch, didn’t he? : )

“Bradshaw completed his first connection with Swann in SB X because Harris was late (i.e., he was too slow) coming over to help Mark Washington.”

No, he threw away from Harris, like in the other couple of examples you mention, and Cliff still got there to make the tackle (being smarter, tougher, and more athletic than Jack Tatum), but by your own logic how slow must Tatum have been to allow all this?

Steelers Versus Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Net Passing Yards
Raiders – 215
Cowboys – 190

Completion Percentage
Raiders – 60%
Cowboys – 47%

Margin Of Victory
Raiders – 6 points
Cowboys – 4 points

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

“The Cowboys were paper champions who put up good regular season stats but when matched up against elite competition they generally lost”

Wrong. In the Super Bowl the Cowboys destroyed Shula’s Dolphins and the Craig Morton Broncos who repeatedly kicked Oakland’s ass. Also…

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Well that’s decisive. The Cowboys’ opponents attempted more passes but completed fewer and for less yardage. They also allowed fewer TDs and intercepted opponents roughly twice as often as the Raiders did. Let’s see how the secondaries stacked up in the biggest game, the Super Bowl:

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

Are all the playoff stats now an alleged “illusion” too, poor little Joey? How about common opponents, both regular season and playoff?

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

You still lose, Joey, as always. On the highlights there’s a great shot of Jack Tatum trailing helplessly on the 74 yard TD to Haven Moses. It must have been embarrassing for Tatum to get torched by a 74 yard TD pass on the big stage like that.

He probably should have been more embarrassed by his less than 100% effort in the run game against the Dolphins in the 1973 AFC Championship (the Raiders lost a lot of conference championship games, going 1-4 in the Tatum era compared to Cliff Harris’ 4-2 record as a starter). In fairness he did try to tackle Larry Csonka early on a couple of times, only to get trucked for an additional several yards. This was probably on his mind when he reached out with ONE hand and declined to try to tackle the Dolphins’ RB as he rushed by him into the end zone. I’ve NEVER seen Cliff Harris make a “business decision” like Tatum did. Harris gave 100% on every play, and was a more reliable tackler than Tatum in addition to being better in coverage.

Miami put up 266 rushing yards on the soft Raiders defense that day, with Csonka contributing 117 yards and 3 TDs. Griese only attempted 6 passes, because they didn’t NEED to pass, which often happened with the Raiders in the playoffs (making their higher passing yardage allowed stats even more pathetic). Tatum’s Oakland Raiders couldn’t even stop a one dimensional team. Miami blew out Oakland 27-10, the same score Dallas would crush the 1977 Broncos by, though not as big as the margin by which Dallas blew out Miami.

In Super Bowl VI the Cowboys held the Dolphins to 80 rushing yards and Csonka to 40. Griese was forced to attempt 23 passes, though it didn’t do him any good as he ended up with a 51.7 rating and a 24-3 loss. The Cliff Harris Cowboys are still the only team in SB history to hold their opponent out of the end zone.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

That’s despite the Cowboys not getting to play Pittsburgh in 1976, when they were a walking MASH unit due to things like Raiders safety George Atkinson taking out Lynn Swann from behind with a cowardly cheap shot to the head away from the play, and both the Steelers’ 1,000 yard RBs being out of the starting lineup with injuries in the playoff game. Otherwise, there’s a good chance the 1970s Raiders would have zero Super Bowl appearances.

“As for the Steelers being a MASH Unit in 1976, which Steelers missed the ’76 season opener when the Raiders beat them?”

I already addressed that earlier, you lying moron, by pointing out that was just a 3 point game. I didn’t say they were a walking MASH unit in the OPENER. Wow…talking to you is like teaching special ed. But the Raiders’ cheap shots contributed to the Steelers’ injured status. Cowardly hits from behind away from the play are one way to control a WR I guess, just not the manly way.

“Which Steeler defenders missed the AFC Title game vs. the Raiders”

Sorry, I almost forgot that we had established you know nothing about football. Both their two 1,000 yard RBs who had powered them into the playoffs that year were out that game (among other players). You see, little Joey, in football a good offense (especially a strong running game) helps your defense and vice versa. If you have no offense your defense has a lot more uphill fight.

“The NFC East became a beast in the ’80s. It was a weak division in the ’70s.”

Wrong.

Combined Pro Bowls among opposing divisional QBs 1971-1979

Cowboys – 8
Raiders – 3

Combined Playoff seasons among divisional opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 9
Raiders – 5

The NFC East was much better even in the 1970s than the weak AFC West was. The NFC East produced a MAJORITY of the NFC Super Bowl teams in the 1970s, 6 out of 10, while the AFC West only made it there one measly year. No Tatum Raiders divisional opponent made the Super Bowl. You simply repeating your false assertion otherwise while disregarding the facts I’ve posted refuting you just underscores your cowardly, dishonest nature.

“the rightful Hall of Fame denials of Chuck Howley, Charlie Waters, and the highly overrated Cliff Harris.”

Even a lot of non-Cowboys fans acknowledge that Chuck Howley and Cliff Harris are among the most deserving of being enshrined out of everyone not already in Canton. Your game is weak.

“The Redskins beat the Cowboys twice in ’72.”

I said “regular season”, moron. You know, like how the Seahawks(multiple years, lol!) and Craig Morton Broncos swept the Raiders in the regular season. I wasn’t counting the Steelers beating down the Raiders twice in 1972 there. I didn’t make that stat up either. The network broadcasters (I believe they were the great Pat Summerall and maybe Tom Brookshier) made a big deal out of it in the 1979 regular season finale Cowboys comeback win over the Redskins to keep that record intact.

“And the second Washington victory (NFC Title Game) was no “fluke” or “controversy.””

Except that Dallas’ best player, QB Roger Staubach, was making his first start after being injured all year and basically written off. It’s impressive that the Cowboys managed to beat the Redskins once that year (and beat Bradshaw’s Steelers) without Staubach and make the playoffs. The Tatum Raiders were unable to accomplish that feat against a far lesser team in the Seahawks(lol!) in 1978 or 1979 even with Stabler.

“they had Cowboys limping off the field left and right like wounded Confederate soldiers. LOL!!!”

North deaths – 360,000
South deaths – 258,000

“And show me a season when the Stabler-Tatum Raiders lost to a team with 4 or less wins, then we’ll talk.”

I love how you keep moving the goalposts after your blind assertions invariably blow up in your face. Last post you made a big deal about Dallas losing to a few teams with losing records, and I posted MORE examples of the Raiders losing to losing teams. Now you’re pretending there’s some arbitrary cut off point of “4” wins that apparently only applies to one game, lol? No, the rest of your post is just cherry-picking; more desperate but futile squirming. Cherry-picking is for little girls, Josephine. I’ve already crushed you with total common opponents records and stats.

“Name one record that a single QB or receiver/tight end ever set or established on a Tatum-led secondary…We’re waiting. junior. You can’t!”

The Vikings passed for a SUPER BOWL RECORD 282 YARDS against the Tatum Raiders, you idiot. The next year the Harris Cowboys held the Broncos (who had just torched Tatum’s Raiders again) to only 35 passing yards in the Super Bowl. That was the last season before the chuck rule change.

I didn’t just run behind you and pull you down Lambert style; I picked you up and body slammed you Matt Hughes style, kicking your ass decisively. Again.

Cliff Harris was rightly chosen as the decade’s best FS.

• Joseph Wright
May 26, 2017

“Oh I see. You don’t like Harris, Larry Wilson, or Dick Anderson because they’re white, and you’re some kind of pitiful racial bigot. That’s why you singled Tatum, Donnie Shell, and Ken Houston (all black men) out for praise earlier. Well perhaps the leading HoF safety candidate from the 1990s/early 2000s is John Lynch, a white man. The hard hitting Pro Bowler Scott Case (actually built a lot like Harris, but maybe a little skinnier) was the best safety in Atlanta Falcons history (signed by the 1995 Cowboys; watch how he devastated the Steelers’ receiving corps in SB XXX even at the end of his career).” So, readers, Razzie has no intellect (can’t answer simple questions regarding Cowboys futility vs. elite teams in the ’70s, STILL believes the South won the Civil War), no reading comprehension skills (I have stated at least twice Mike Wagner–who put Drew Pearson out of SB XIII with broken ribs–was a much better safety than Cliff Harris. Or is Wagner Black and I don’t know it?) and no since of humor (the movie was named White Men Can’t Jump and Harris is White and he couldn’t jump with Lynn Swann on that TD in SB XIII that Swann burnt him with–LOL!!!).

For the record, Wagner, Gary Fencik, Doug Plank, Tim Fox, and Jake Scott were ALL better safeties than Cliff Harris if we are going to be race-specific, being that the Confederate apologist wussy (AKA Rasputin) now wants to play the race card. I have no problem with John Lynch. He is a Ronnie Lott fan. Of course, Lott was inspired by Tatum, not sorry-ass, overrated Cliff Harris. As for Larry Wilson, great ’60s player whose game didn’t translate into the 70s. Played three years of the decade and made a single Pro Bowl and All-Pro selection in 1970. And yet he is honored for the ENTIRE decade? Injustice. Still waiting on you to stop being a coward and give me the number of playoff appearances and championship teams Wilson built during his years as a coach and GM. Dick Anderson? Burnt by an aging Mike Ditka in SB VI but did give props to Tatum in NFL Films “Top 10 Most Feared Tacklers.” BTW, Cliff Harris failed to make the list. Guys who make “business decisions” (the lie you unsuccessfully have tried to put on Tatum. It doesn’t fly, Razzie) or fall over piles to make it appear that the had something to do with the play (like Cliff Harris vs. Csonka in SB VI) aren’t on that list. Scott Case was the best safety in Falcons history? Whooptie-damn-doo!!! Who was the greatest safety in Detroit Lions history? Cleveland Browns history? How many times did Case make the Pro Bowl for his work at safety? How many times did they make the playoffs during his time there? His Super Bowl XXX vs. Pittsburgh? You mean that gift from Neil O’Donnell? Even Cliff Harris would have looked good in THAT matchup with Pittsburgh. LMFAO!!! Thanks for stupidly further proving one of my many points about Dallas: They could only beat the Steelers when Pittsburgh was short-handed (Neil O/Donnell at QB–I’d say that’s short-handed).

“Except that Dallas’ best player, QB Roger Staubach, was making his first start after being injured all year and basically written off.”

Staubach led the Cowboys to a come-from-behind win over San Francisco the week before. He was healthy. Of course, Dallas stupidly traded Duane Thomas instead of paying him. But Dallas still had Calvin Hill. And that great pass coverage featuring “The Best Free Safety of the 70s”… Oh, I guess I can see why they got smoked (Charley Taylor: 7 catches, 146 yds–Conference Title Record, two TDs) by the Redskins. LOL!!!

Once again, numbskull answer the questions:
Name one record that a single QB or receiver/tight end ever set or established on a Tatum-led secondary. The added garbage time Bob Lee yards while Tatum and Willie Brown (not to mention Ted Hendricks and two other defensive starters) are enjoying the final minutes of a 32-7 laugher–it’s on YouTube, readers–is a deceptive, cowardly way to squirm away from the key point: The Tatum secondary was more effective vs. Fran Tarkenton (206 yards and 1 TD, requiring 35 attempts and 17 completions) than the overmatched Harris secondary vs. Bradshaw the year before (209 yards and 2 TDs, needing only 19 attempts and 9 completions).

–Any Viking receiver have 100+ yards vs. Tatum’s secondary?
–How many 100-yard receivers pasted Harris’ secondary in the Super Bowl?
–Who was injured on the ’76 Steelers defense in the AFC Title game?
–Couldn’t Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth step up and exploit the Raiders’ “weak secondary?”
–Everyone was back in place for the ’77 early-season rematch, how did that Steelers-Raiders game turn out?
–How did that “bad” Steelers team fair against the Cowboys that same year?
–What was Rock Bleier REALLY gonna do in the ’76 AFC Title game?
–Did Bleier damage the Raiders in the ’76 season opener?
–How could Harris and the great coverage secondary led by Cliff Harris get destroyed for 238 receiving yards and four TDs in ’73–1973! Pre-Chuck era!–by Harold Jackson?
–If Swann and Jackson repeatedly (that’s multiple games, moron) torched the slow, unathletic Harris, can you imagine the cremation and toasting Cliff Branch would have put on the Harris secondary in ’77 at SB XII?
–And as Harris was always looking for a place to hide vs. Csonka, Franco, and Earl Campbell, then Dave Casper–who was having an awesome ’77 playoff run–would have run over Harris easily in SB XII, right?
–The “controversy” in SB XIII is one pass interference call on Lynn Swann. That placed the ball at the Dallas 22. Couldn’t Dallas hold Pittsburgh to a field goal?
–Why did Franco go 22 yards to the endzone on the very next play?
–Even with Waters getting screened by the official, where was the Dallas defensive line? Where were the linebackers?
–Why was Harris looking for a place to hide instead of making the tackle on Franco? The run was up the middle. Isn’t that where the FREE SAFETY–the last line of defense–is SUPPOSED to be?
–In the official cremation of Cliff Harris’ overrated career, where was he when Vince Ferregamo completed long crossing pattern TD passes, thus marking the end of the Cliff Harris era (error)?
We’re waiting, junior. Are there any answers or more chicken-hearted cowardice and lies?

• Rasputin
May 26, 2017

Another meltdown from little Joey Wrong because I struck too close to home. Hey, Joey, you were the one who brought up race, not me. You revealed too much about yourself. Clearly you have some issues there. Your racial obsessions and prejudices have warped your perspective on reality. You should let go of the hate.

“For the record, Wagner, Gary Fencik, Doug Plank, Tim Fox, and Jake Scott were ALL better safeties than Cliff Harris if we are going to be race-specific’

But you don’t have very high opinions of those guys either, do you, Josephine? That’s why you didn’t include them in your list of “athletic” safeties earlier (guess we know what that’s your dog whistle code word for). Now we know that every time you call Harris “slow and unathletic” you really mean “white”. Of course Harris was very athletic, or he wouldn’t have become the greatest FS of the 1970s, as he did.

“Lott was inspired by Tatum,”

Calvin Johnson was inspired by Megatron, leader of the Decepticons. Who gives a crap who some player’s alleged “hero” was? What are you, in third grade?

To the extent any of those safeties had lasting influence, it was Harris who influenced scouts, GMs, and coaches like Larry Wilson and Charlie Waters to consciously seek out Cliff Harris type free safeties. “Killers” who could also cover, as SI’s Dr. Z put it.

“I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.” – Larry Wilson

It doesn’t matter how many Super Bowls Larry Wilson won as a scout, GM, or HoF safety himself. He was in the business for a long time as a professional talent evaluator and assembler, and was influential. So was Charlie Waters, who made the call with the Broncos to draft Atwater because he was more of Cliff Harris type safety than a Tatum like safety (despite their skin color being different, which must confuse your little bigoted mind).

“NFL Films “Top 10 Most Feared Tacklers.” BTW, Cliff Harris failed to make the list. ”

Harris made SI’s “Hardest Hitters in NFL History” list (of any position).

“Guys who make “business decisions” (the lie you unsuccessfully have tried to put on Tatum. It doesn’t fly, Razzie)”

That’s no lie, liar. Anyone can watch the tape of the 1973 AFC Championship and see it for themselves. After getting trucked by Czonka a few times, Tatum got alligator arms and let Czonka run right by him into the end zone while only making a token, ONE ARMED swipe at him. Cszonka ran over the Raiders the rest of the day. I said from the beginning Tatum could hit hard. No one denies that. But he didn’t hustle or give 100% on every play like Harris did. He wasn’t as tough as Harris. Tatum would make business decisions or just decide to dog it from time to time. I’ve never seen Harris do that. It’s also a lot easier to tag defenseless WRs than it is a great RB with a head of steam. Harris stood out because he was always willing to sacrifice his body doing the hard jobs like that.

“or fall over piles to make it appear that the had something to do with the play (like Cliff Harris vs. Csonka in SB VI)”

So you’re saying Harris got involved and made sure Csonka was fully tackled in Super Bowl VI, rather than avoid him like Tatum did. Got it.

“Scott Case was the best safety in Falcons history? Whooptie-damn-doo!!!…His Super Bowl XXX vs. Pittsburgh? You mean that gift from Neil O’Donnell?”

No, I’m talking about him systematically laying out pretty much their entire receiving corp over the course of the game, not the interceptions, though the violent hits may have helped disrupt their passing game’s execution and contributed to the later interceptions.

Since you don’t know anything about football, you wouldn’t understand stuff like that though.

“being that the Confederate apologist…STILL believes the South won the Civil War”

Nope, liar. Just correcting your false claims and showing your ignorance extends to general history. It’s not much of a “massacre” if the outnumbered southern army kills more northerners than vice versa. Like I said, your analogies and reading comprehension suck.

“Staubach led the Cowboys to a come-from-behind win over San Francisco the week before. He was healthy.”

He was put in at the end of the 49ers game, but the Redskins game was his first start that year. He was rusty. At least the Redskins made the Super Bowl that year, and the Cowboys beat them in the regular season without Staubach. The Seahawks were only 9-7 and missed the playoffs BOTH years they swept Tatum’s Raiders, LOL. That’s just sad.

The rest of your post just repeats already debunked crap, really nothing new, while continuing to dodge my points like the coward you are. It’s especially funny that you’re harping on “records” when the Tatum Raiders, in their ONE AND ONLY SB APPEARANCE, SURRENDERED RECORD PASSING YARDS. Tarkenton didn’t play the whole game but still put up big numbers, as did his replacement. Garbage time is one thing….but a record passing yards allowed? A lot of the other games had garbage time too. The following year the Cliff Harris Doomsday defense had a lot of garbage time and a replacement QB to defend, but they only allowed 35 passing yards to the team that had just torched Tatum’s Raiders for the second time that year (ending the Tatum Raiders’ last playoff bid). The Tatum Raiders surrendered more passing yards than any other Super Bowl team in the pre-chuck rule change era. That’s just a fact you’re going to have to accept. It’s fitting, since the biggest weakness of the 1970s Raiders was their pass defense.

I called BS on you cherry-picking games while ignoring the overall facts showing the Cliff Harris Cowboys absolutely crush the Tatum Raiders any way you look at it. I called BS on you cherry-picking INDIVIDUAL player stats (WR, QB) while ignoring team stats, and failing to even address my explanation as to why team stats are particularly more relevant than a single WR’s numbers are when we’re comparing safety play. I quoted news articles talking about a particular cornerback, like Mark Washington or Charlie Waters (early 1970s), not Cliff Harris, being victimized in the games you keep blindly harping on (e.g. by Lynn Swann or Charlie Taylor), but you don’t care, because you’re just a lying, cowardly, moronic wuss. That’s alright. That makes me feel good about kicking your punk ass all over this page with authority the way I have. I’ll give you another brief sledgehammer shot, for old time’s sake.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

And that’s despite Dallas playing in the tough NFC East rather than the weak AFC West like the Raiders.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

Pro Bowls

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections

Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Champion Records As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

I’ll even tack on this one this time, just because you made such a big deal out of interceptions for dozens of posts on this page (but not anymore, right?):

Career Playoff Interceptions

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 2

You lose and Cliff Harris wins again.

• Joseph Wright
May 27, 2017

I guess I struck a nerve with Razzie. I made a joke about the Snipes-Harrelson movie and he goes overboard playing the race card. Amazingly ignorant.
He conveniently, yet cowardly, ignores the fact that I give Wagner props as well as others. The others I mention don’t show the lack of speed and athleticism that Harris displayed and got the Cowboys burned with. The misleading garbage time addition by Viking QB Bob Lee to the Vikings total with Tatum, Hendricks, Willie Brown and others resting on the sidelines doesn’t fly. Are you saying, then, that the Ronnie Lott-led secondary did just as “bad” a job on Dan Marino (SB XIX) as the Cowboys did on Terry Bradshaw (SB XIII), dumbass?

Still, looking for you to show some courage, princess. I would have said man up but you’ve shown you have no balls. All we need you to do is answer these questions:

–Name one record that a single QB or receiver/tight end ever set or established on a Tatum-led secondary. (Adding garbage time stats with Tatum and other defensive starters, e.g., Ted Hendricks, Willie Brown, resting on the sidelines of a rout are acts of deception and cowardice–girlie behavior)
–Any Viking receiver have 100+ yards vs. Tatum’s secondary?
–How many 100-yard receivers pasted Harris’ secondary in the Super Bowl?
–Who was injured on the ’76 Steelers defense in the AFC Title game?
–Couldn’t Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth step up and exploit the Raiders’ “weak secondary?”
–Everyone was back in place for the ’77 early-season rematch, how did that Steelers-Raiders game turn out?
–How did that “bad” Steelers team fair against the Cowboys that same year?
–What was Rocky Bleier REALLY gonna do in the ’76 AFC Title game?
–Did Bleier damage the Raiders in the ’76 season opener?
–How could Harris and the great coverage secondary led by Cliff Harris get destroyed for 238 receiving yards and four TDs in ’73–1973! Pre-Chuck era!–by Harold Jackson?
–If Swann and Jackson repeatedly (that’s multiple games, moron) torched the slow, unathletic Harris, can you imagine the cremation and toasting Cliff Branch would have put on the Harris secondary in ’77 at SB XII?
–And as Harris was always looking for a place to hide vs. Csonka, Franco, and Earl Campbell, then Dave Casper–who was having an awesome ’77 playoff run–would have run over Harris easily in SB XII, right?
–The “controversy” in SB XIII is one pass interference call on Lynn Swann. That placed the ball at the Dallas 22. Couldn’t Dallas hold Pittsburgh to a field goal?
–Why did Franco go 22 yards to the endzone on the very next play?
–Even with Waters getting screened by the official, where was the Dallas defensive line? Where were the linebackers?
–Why was Harris looking for a place to hide instead of making the tackle on Franco? The run was up the middle. Isn’t that where the FREE SAFETY–the last line of defense–is SUPPOSED to be?
–In the official cremation of Cliff Harris’ overrated career, where was he when Vince Ferregamo completed long crossing pattern TD passes, thus marking the end of the Cliff Harris era (error)?
–I’ve knocked Emmitt Smith’s lack of speed and athleticism constantly. Stiffs are stiffs as far as I’m concerned. Did I miss something? Is Emmitt Smith White?

• Rasputin
May 29, 2017

Poor Joey is embarrassed after letting his racial prejudice slip and is desperately trying to backtrack and spin it away. Hey, don’t worry, Joseph, it’s not like you’re the only race obsessed bigot out there, unfortunately. But it does help explain why your perspective on reality is so warped and irrational.

“He conveniently, yet cowardly, ignores the fact that I give Wagner props as well as others.”

Not in your sentence about supposedly “athletic” safeties where you only listed “Tatum, Donnie Shell, Ken Houston,” and in an earlier sentence “Tatum, Ken Houston, Ronnie Lott and Kenny Easley”.

“Who was injured on the ’76 Steelers defense in the AFC Title game?”

What, their offense doesn’t matter? You were the one who faceplanted earlier by bringing up them having two 1,000 yard RBs that year (which I already knew and was about to bring up myself). You obviously had no idea both those backs were out with injuries or you wouldn’t have emphasized that.

“Couldn’t Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth step up and exploit the Raiders’ “weak secondary?””

Would have been easier with at least one of their star RBs healthy, and without the cowardly Raiders’ cheap shots on receivers, but they did perform better against Oakland than against the Cowboys in years where they played both teams.

“Everyone was back in place for the ’77 early-season rematch, how did that Steelers-Raiders game turn out? How did that “bad” Steelers team fair against the Cowboys that same year?”

You mean when the Steelers started a terrible 4-4, playing closer against the Raiders than they did against the Oilers, Colts, and Broncos? They were clearly a much better team in the second half of the season, going 5-1 and making the playoffs, but overall Dallas played better against Pittsburgh than Oakland did in years where they were a common opponent, as the facts I’ve repeatedly posted prove, you cherry-picking wuss.

“Did Bleier damage the Raiders in the ’76 season opener?”

Bleier was the game’s leading rusher, moron. The Steelers rolled up 196 rushing yards and 3 rushing TDs (by Bleier, Harris, and Stallworth) that game. That helped open up the passing game, as the Steelers threw for a net 242 yards against the Raiders, scoring 28 points in a 3 point nail-biter. In the playoff rematch the Steelers, without their top 2 RBs, only managed 72 rushing yards, 165 passing yards, and 7 points. So yeah, obviously it made a difference.

“Why did Franco go 22 yards to the endzone on the very next play?”

Official interference. The other players had other responsibilities, moron. If you knew anything about football you’d know that sometimes one extra blocker neutralizing a single player can make the difference between a play that goes nowhere and one that pops open. It was 3rd and 12, the Steelers were giving up and trying to set up a field goal try, and the gap that opened up was Charlie Waters’ responsibility to fill. He knew that and was right on pace to stuff Harris if not for the bizarre official obstruction. Usually the officials stayed out of the way in situations like that.

“I’ve knocked Emmitt Smith’s lack of speed and athleticism constantly.”

Because you’re a moron who doesn’t know anything about athleticism or sports.

“And as Harris was always looking for a place to hide vs. Csonka,”

LOL! I’ve never seen Harris try to “hide” from anyone, you lying buffoon. Even you’ve been claiming that he went out of his way to get INTO the tackles of Csonka at the end when he didn’t really need to. The Harris Cowboys shut Csonka down. You can’t keep a coherent position through a single debate. You’re always squirming and crying.

Harris never looking to hide or make Tatum-like business decisions is a big part of why the Cowboys ranked better than the Raiders in run, pass, and overall defense year after year. It wasn’t even close.

The rest of your post is just repeating already debunked claims, Josephine, you wussy little girl. You just half-assed it, sort of like Tatum did after Larry Csonka trucked him a few times. I’ll repost some stuff since you’re still dodging it.

I called BS on you cherry-picking games while ignoring the overall facts showing the Cliff Harris Cowboys absolutely crush the Tatum Raiders any way you look at it. I called BS on you cherry-picking INDIVIDUAL player stats (WR, QB) while ignoring team stats, and failing to even address my explanation as to why team stats are particularly more relevant than a single WR’s numbers are when we’re comparing safety play. I quoted news articles talking about a particular cornerback, like Mark Washington or Charlie Waters (early 1970s), not Cliff Harris, being victimized in the games you keep blindly harping on (e.g. by Lynn Swann or Charlie Taylor), but you don’t care, because you’re just a lying, cowardly, moronic wuss. That’s alright. That makes me feel good about kicking your punk ass all over this page with authority the way I have. I’ll give you another brief sledgehammer shot, for old time’s sake.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948

NFL average – 20,248.8

Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

And that’s despite Dallas playing in the tough NFC East rather than the weak AFC West like the Raiders.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Average Opponent Completions, Attempts, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games): 11.9 – 25.3 per game, 47.1% (based on totals)
Raiders (12 games): 12.1 – 24 per game, 50.3%

Average Total Playoff Scores, 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) : 22.4 – 15; +7.4 margin/game
Raiders (12 games) : 22.2 – 20.1; +2.1 margin/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Defense Interceptions to Passing TD Allowed Ratio, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 2.75 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.
Raiders (12 games) – 1.18 interceptions for every passing TD allowed.

Net Yards Allowed Per Passing Attempt, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 5.75 net yards allowed/attempt
Raiders (12 games) – 6.3 net yards allowed/attempt

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

Average Opponent Completion Percentage, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) : 47.4%
Raiders (1 game) : 54.5%

Winning Percentage Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 67%
Raiders – 57%

Passing Yards/Game Allowed Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 148.1 y/g
Raiders – 158.5 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed, Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys – 48%
Raiders – 49.4%

Average Score Against Common Opponents 1971-1979

Cowboys: 24.4–16.3, +8.1 margin
Raiders: 20.9–18.5, +2.4 margin

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

Pro Bowls

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 3

First Team AP All Pro Selections

Cliff Harris – 3
Jack Tatum – 0

Total Playoff Wins As Starters

Cliff Harris – 12
Jack Tatum – 7

Conference Champion Records As Starters

Cliff Harris – 4-2
Jack Tatum – 1-4

Super Bowl Wins

Cliff Harris – 2
Jack Tatum – 1

I’ll even tack on this one this time, just because you made such a big deal out of interceptions for dozens of posts on this page (but not anymore, right?):

Career Playoff Interceptions

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 2

You lose and Cliff Harris wins again.

“If Swann and Jackson repeatedly (that’s multiple games, moron) torched the slow, unathletic Harris, can you imagine the cremation and toasting Cliff Branch would have put on the Harris secondary in ’77 at SB XII?”

LOL! The 1977 Cowboys ranked #1 in offense and #1 in defense and were peaking in the playoffs. They twice annihilated the team that kicked Oakland’s ass twice that year. Doomsday was a lot better than the Orange Crush, and was light years better than Tatum’s haggard crew. The Cowboys’ swarming pass coverage would have covered up Stabler’s receivers all day. Cliff Harris probably would have knocked out Cliff Branch instead Rick Upchurch. Since Dallas would have had an even easier time scoring on Oakland than it did against Denver, Stabler would have grown frustrated and thrown numerous interceptions….probably more than Craig Morton did, since Stabler threw as many interceptions as TDs in 1977, lol. Drew Pearson was fearless, not intimidated by anyone. Same with Roger Staubach. A slow, unathletic Tatum wouldn’t have been much help in containing the lightening fast Tony Dorsett, and the pounding Tatum received from downfield blocking Cowboys linemen (the strong, quiet professionals of the “Zero Club”) likely would have demoralized and caused him to check out early. The Cowboys would have kicked the Raiders’ asses by an even bigger margin than they did the Broncos’.

It would have been much bigger than the Cowboys’ victory over the 1980 Raiders. Much, much bigger.

Face it, Josephine. Cliff Harris was tougher, more athletic, and way better than Jack Tatum. That’s why Harris was rightly chosen as the best FS of the decade.

• Joseph Wright
May 30, 2017

Given that we are dealing with a kindergarten mind (can’t answer multiple questions at once–it’s a brain overload for him–her?) with no sense of humor (If White Men Can’t Jump quips triggers meltdowns resulting in whining over-the-top-false allegations of racism, imagine how Razzie felt when basketball announcers called Jayson Williams “White Chocolate?” A politically correct Confederate sympathizer is an impossible oxymoron, moron), I’ll take it easy on the idiot.

–“LOL! The 1977 Cowboys ranked #1 in offense and #1 in defense (My response: ON PAPER) and were peaking in the playoffs. They twice annihilated the team that kicked Oakland’s ass twice that year. Doomsday was a lot better than the Orange Crush, and was light years better than Tatum’s haggard crew. The Cowboys’ swarming pass coverage would have covered up Stabler’s receivers all day (major pipedream). Cliff Harris probably would have knocked out Cliff Branch instead Rick Upchurch (just say no to crack, Razzie). Since Dallas would have had an even easier time scoring on Oakland than it did against Denver, Stabler would have grown frustrated and thrown numerous interceptions….probably more than Craig Morton did, since Stabler threw as many interceptions as TDs in 1977, lol. ”

Stabler threw 20 TDs and 20 INTs, liar. Further, once again, Rick Upchurch was a scrub. Branch was an All-Pro receiver. Branch caught four TD passes against the Steelers secondary during his career and worked out regularly vs. Willie Brown, Tatum, and Atkinson. With THAT type of toughening up, Cliif Harris’ pillow-fight “tackles” would have done absolutely no damage. You’re talking about a receiver who once sent Mel Blount to the bench in a playoff game. Stabler had no problem with the Steelers defense in ’76 nor ’77, so why would he serve up INTs to the Cowboys “coverage?” Dallas: No. 1 ON PAPER, exploited ON THE FIELD! Did Stabler and Branch have any problems with the Harris secondary in ’74? BTW, Shell and Upshaw would have neutralized Martin and White. And as for Cliff Harris’ “hide and seek” tendencies vs. opponents who were 20 pounds and heavier than him (looking for a place to hide vs. Csonka, Franco, and the Thanksgiving ’79 no-show with Earl Campbell), Dave Casper conceivably could have been the first and only tight end to win Super Bowl MVP because we know from watching live TV, NFL Films, and YouTube (the images don’t lie) that Harris would be NO WHERE on the scene as Casper was crossing the goalline.

–So Bleier was the leading rusher in the ’76 season opener? An earth-shattering 73 yards on 20 carries, well below four yds. per rush. You’re an idiot. Bleier wouldn’t have made any difference in the ’76 AFC Title game as he showed in the next year or in previous years. Reggie Harrison and Fuqua combined for the 68 yds. that Franco gained in the ’76 season opener. Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth simply did not step up in the ’76 AFC Title game. There was no stupid talk about Raider cheap-shots, afterwards. And there were no talk of Raiders cheap-shots after the ’77 rematch. The better team, who was leading 16-0 deep into the fourth quarter, simply won. Did Dallas EVER have a 16-point lead vs. Pittsburgh within ANY game they played them in the ’70s? As for that ’72 Dallas “win” over Pittsburgh (without Swann, Stallworth, or the Harris bodyslammer Jack Lambert–LOL!!!), the Cowboys had to resort to a gimmicky trick-play to get the winning TD–a running back option pass from Calvin Hill. LOL!!! Did the Raiders need any cowardly “tricks” like that to beat Pittsburgh? They just lined up and hit them as hard as they could and let the chips fall. The Raiders needed no “tricks” to whip Dallas’ ass in ’74. Unless, you consider an 80-year-old man going back to throw a 28-yard TD pass to Cliff Branch (where was the free safety, Harris, with the help? Too dumb to read the QB’s eyes? Too slow? LMFAO!!!) a trick.

–Turns out, one of your boys, Preston Pearson, had his own view on Rocky Bleier’s “1,000-yd season” in his book, Hearing the Noise. He felt Bleier reached the grand total because people keyed on Franco and “defenses practically ignored him.” Of course, when posed with the choice of cutting Bleier or Pearson, the Steelers chose Bleier. Apparently, the Pittsburgh went with the tougher player. So was Bleier a game-changing player in ’76 who would have led the Steelers to a three-peat (like Razzie says) or was he a stiff (like Pearson and I say this is not a contradiction; Stiffs are usually tough. How else can they make up for being stiffs?)? And, before I had the displeasure of meeting Razzie, Preston Pearson was the first person I’ve heard say that at the end of SB XIII that the Steelers were a “beaten team” and the Cowboys “outhit” the Steelers. What a crock.

As we can see, Razzie is no different than other Cowboys and their supporters: They’re delusional (“Cliff Harris would have whipped Lambert’s ass!” “Harris would have knocked out Cliff Branch”), in denial (“The matchups don’t show anything…they were fluky losses…We really don’t know who the better team was”–the four consecutive Pittsburgh beatdowns in the ’70s vs. the Steelers ’70s struggles with the Raiders) Full of creative excuses (“That was a transition year for the Cowboys…” when they were outclassed by Stabler–vs. the Harris secondary–and shut down by Tatum’s secondary–vs. Staubach, Drew Pearson, Billy Joe DuPree, and Golden Richards, only prime receivers the next year in Super Bowl X), desperately fighting a lost cause (adding in garbage time statistics–Bob Lee’s Super Bowl yards; repeatedly bringing up Mike Boryla’s “Pro Bowl” season), cowardly (refusing to answer direct questions: Why was Harris reppeatedly torched by Swann and Stallworth while Tatum kept them basically quiet?–compare the TDs, catches, and yards in the matchups; “Explain why only one receiver went off on the Tatum secondary–Haven Moses–while multiple receivers lit up the Harris’ secondary in the playoffs) and entertaining pipe dreams (Hollywood Henderson–Razzie MUST be smokin’ the same stuff; “Harris was faster, stronger, and smarter than Jack Tatum”).

• Rasputin
May 31, 2017

Ha Ha, you’re the one whining and overly defensive, Joseph Wright. I didn’t say I was offended by your racial prejudice. In fact I appreciate that your racial “joke” exposed it, because it explains many of your otherwise inexplicable comments, like you repeatedly insisting that the NFL’s first team All Decade free safety, a 6 time Pro Bowler and multiple Super Bowl champion known for versatility and flying all over the field, whom the annual award for the nation’s best small school college player is named after, was somehow “unathletic”. You didn’t even say you felt Tatum had a slight edge in athleticism (which still wouldn’t be true); you completely dismissed Cliff Harris as “unathletic”, lol, without even attempting to provide any basis for this assertion until you brought up race.

You didn’t just make the “white men can’t jump” joke. You listed 3 white guys (HoFer Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson, and Cliff Harris) as examples of “unathletic” safeties who were the type supposedly “on the way out”, being replaced by “athletic” type safeties like “Tatum, Donnie Shell, Ken Houston” (all black). You even singled out Bill Bates for mockery and comparison to Cliff Harris. Now out of all the Cowboys safeties over the years, most of whom never got close to a Pro Bowl, why would you select a Pro Bowl special teams ace to attack….a player who was so great at what he did that they created the special teams Pro Bowl slot just so they could send him? Oh wait, that’s right. He’s white. See? It makes sense now.

“A politically correct Confederate sympathizer is an impossible oxymoron,”

I’m neither, liar. Again, I’m not offended by your racial prejudice. I just observed that it means you’re stupid and wrong. BTW, your unfunny racial joke hardly proves you have a sense of humor. That one was a dud, believe me. As a stand up act you’d elicit far more groans and heckling than laughs.

Me: “…since Stabler threw as many interceptions as TDs in 1977, lol. ”

You: “Stabler threw 20 TDs and 20 INTs, liar.”

“Liar”? You just agreed with me, moron. You were saying something about smoking crack?

“Rick Upchurch was a scrub.”

You already said that, and I pointed out that Upchurch was a 4 time Pro Bowler who was first team All Pro in 1976, 1978, and 1982, who led the NFL in return yards in 1977, who had Denver’s best play by far in Super Bowl XII, and who was generally the Bronco’s best play maker. A great returner is harder to knock out than a normal WR, moron, all things being equal. There’s certainly no reason to assume a guy who makes his living weaving in and out of “kamikaze” squads at full speed on a weekly basis would somehow be an easier target or more delicate than someone who doesn’t.

Don’t just repeat claims I’ve already addressed. It’s the sign of a dull wit. At least try to come up with new replies.

“Stabler had no problem with the Steelers defense in ’76 nor ’77, so why would he serve up INTs to the Cowboys “coverage?”

Who cares about the Steelers? Seriously, get over your little girl crush on them, Josephine. They weren’t involved because the Broncos beat their asses (twice). Craig Morton only threw 8 interceptions in the entire regular season, and 4 against the Doomsday defense in the Super Bowl. Stabler threw 20(!) in the regular season, so while no one can predict the outcome of a single game with certainty (which is all your pitiful “Steelers” example shows), the odds are very good that the interception-prone Stabler would have had at least as bad a day against the peaking, playoff form Cowboys as the much better (that year he was) Craig Morton did.

“Did Stabler and Branch have any problems with the Harris secondary in ’74?”

You’ve already mindlessly harped on the meaningless 1974 finale of the Cowboys’ worst season that decade and the only one where they didn’t make the playoffs. I responded by pointing out that you’re a moronic hypocrite for pretending that game somehow matters to the entire era since you obviously don’t believe the more decisive win by the Cowboys over the Raiders (also at Oakland) in 1980 means Dallas was better than Super Bowl bound Oakland even that season, let alone for an entire era.

Again, at least address my responses so you seem like less of a drooling moron than you are. I’m trying to help you out here.

“BTW, Shell and Upshaw would have neutralized Martin and White. And as for Cliff Harris’ “hide and seek” tendencies vs. opponents who were 20 pounds and heavier than him (looking for a place to hide vs. Csonka, Franco, and the Thanksgiving ’79 no-show with Earl Campbell),”

LOL! Stop lying, little Joey Wrong. Harris never “hid” from anyone. You haven’t pointed to a single real example of that happening. You’re just sore about me pointing out specific instances of Tatum dogging it and making a business decision against a rumbling Larry Csonka in the 1973 AFC Championship game, one that’s publicly viewable for free on youtube. The Cowboys shut down Csonka cold. In fact they shut down the running attack in almost every game of the Cliff Harris era. Unlike you, I’ve pointed to specific examples of Cliff Harris taking down Walter Payton and the much bigger John Riggins one on one with devastating tackles. The Doomsday run defense was even more dominant than its pass defense. The Raiders’ run defense was better than their own pass defense too. The difference is the Cowboys were also among the NFL’s best in pass defense while the Raiders were among the league’s worst.

Oh, and Harvey Martin (1977 defensive player of the year; 20 sacks in a 14 game season) and a freshly unleashed Manster would have annihilated Shell, Upshaw, and the rest of the Raiders’ line. And the Harris-led secondary would have covered up the Raiders receivers all game.

“So Bleier was the leading rusher in the ’76 season opener? An earth-shattering 73 yards on 20 carries, well below four yds. per rush.”

He was the leader of a 196 rushing yard committee effort, moron. He was grinding out the tough yards, Mr. “Paper Stats” (remember “numbers, numbers”, lol? You sorry hypocrite….).

“Bleier wouldn’t have made any difference in the ’76 AFC Title game as he showed in the next year or in previous years. ”

Your psychic powers are unimpressive. 1976 was by far Bleier’s best season.

“Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth simply did not step up in the ’76 AFC Title game.”

That and they were missing both their star 1,000 yard RBs, lol. You can’t spin that away, even if it stings your pride and cracks your Raiders-tinted worldview.

“And there were no talk of Raiders cheap-shots after the ’77 rematch. The better team, who was leading 16-0 deep into the fourth quarter, simply won.”

It ended up being an 8 point game. So were the Oilers, Colts, and Broncos, who beat the Steelers by 17, 10, and 14 respectively in Pittsburgh’s terrible 4-4 opening stretch that year, better than the Raiders? Yes or no, wuss?

“As for that ’72 Dallas “win” over Pittsburgh”

You mean the year the Steelers beat the Tatum Raiders TWICE, lol? If Pittsburgh was supposedly so bad that year (they actually went 11-3 and made it to the AFC Championship game), how do you explain them stomping Tatum’s Oakland not once but twice?

“the Cowboys had to resort to a gimmicky trick-play to get the winning TD–a running back option pass from Calvin Hill. LOL!!! Did the Raiders need any cowardly “tricks” like that to beat Pittsburgh?”

LOL! Only a true coward like you would cry about a clever offensive strategy while defending cowardly cheap shots like hitting little WRs in the back of the head away from the play and injuring them.

“The Raiders needed no “tricks” to whip Dallas’ ass in ’74.”

The Cowboys whipped the Raiders’ asses more soundly in 1980.

“Turns out, one of your boys, Preston Pearson, had his own view on Rocky Bleier’s “1,000-yd season” in his book, Hearing the Noise. He felt Bleier reached the grand total because people keyed on Franco and “defenses practically ignored him.” Of course, when posed with the choice of cutting Bleier or Pearson, the Steelers chose Bleier.”

And Bleier made the most of that opportunity in the 1976 regular season. BTW, the Steelers were missing Franco too in that 1976 playoff game, moron. Damn, you really know nothing about football or fighting (like what a “body slam” is, wuss).

“Why was Harris reppeatedly torched by Swann and Stallworth while Tatum kept them basically quiet?”

You haven’t provided a single example of Harris being torched by anyone, let alone Swann or Stallworth. In fact I quoted from a Pittsburgh news article debunking your whole “Swann/Super Bowl X” theme that pointed out Swann avoided Harris and gained his yards on CB Mark Washington in one on one situations, like when Harris was blitzing or on the other side of the field. I also pointed out that the Cowboys did a lot better than the Raiders against the Steelers in the 3 years where Pittsburgh played both teams, crushing even your stupid cherry-picked premise.

More importantly, I proved that the Harris Cowboys did much better overall and in pass defense than the Tatum Raiders throughout the decade in the regular season, the playoffs, and against common opponents.

That’s still checkmate, Joey, You still lose, and the magnitude of your ass kicking has only grown as you’ve stupidly persisted here. Apart from sometimes hitting hard (when he wasn’t dogging it or making business decisions), Tatum’s one claim to fame was interceptions (sort of like Dallas’ Roy Williams in the 2000s, who couldn’t cover worth crap but had a knack for catching balls that fluttered his way), but after you spent dozens of posts boasting about interceptions and insisting that “regular season stats don’t matter”, I informed you that Cliff Harris has three times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum, shutting you up on that front, lol. Yes, Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, more athletic, and better than Jack Tatum, which is why Harris was sent to twice as many Pro Bowls and won twice as many Super Bowls. Tatum was made a Pro Bowler first too, while four of Harris’ Pro Bowls came after Tatum’s last one, so Tatum wasn’t replacing anyone. In fact Harris was a newer player than Ken Houston. Those All Pro voters you claim supposedly discriminated against Tatum because he was “athletic” made Ken Houston first team All Pro before they ever gave Cliff Harris that honor, debunking yet another whiny excuse from you, though they ultimately made Harris first team All Pro more years, and rightly so, since he was the best FS of the decade.

BTW, thanks, chump, for helping me get this article to the featured “#1 Most Commented” spot. I appreciate it!

• Joseph Wright
June 2, 2017

You’re a liar, a coward and a moron.
A) Your name isn’t Rasputin, you hide behind that moniker so people won’t know the true identity of who this idiot really is.
B) You use misleading statistics to fight lost causes (Minnesota’s “record-setting” passing yards in SB XI; Bob Lee’s 80-yd garbage time performance; conveniently mentioning and taking away Pro Bowl appearances, fraudulent common opponent comparisons, etc.,etc.)
C) Claiming people you’ve never met never saw this pitiful Dallas performance or that pitiful Cliff Harris performance.
D) In complete delusional denial (North’s defeating the South in Civil War; Cliff Harris “confrontation” with Jack Lambert; Lambert’s wasting of Harris; players like Harris, Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson, Blackwood Brothers were relics from the 60s who couldn’t hold up against modern athletes, etc., etc.)
E) Embracing the Confederacy and waving its flag while falsely and foolishly making racial allegations (It is what it is: Harris was a White man and, when it came time to defend Lynn Swann, he couldn’t jump. No racism, just stating the truth. Let’s put it this way: In SB XIII Rocky Bleier and Lynn Swann could jump, Cliff Harris couldn’t).

Finished watching the ’73 AFC Title game and although Csonka ran through Tatum, he was also tackled four times one-on-one within the game by the Raiders free safety. Additionally, on a first half goalline play, Csonka comes through to make a block and Tatum launches through and knocks Csonka flat on his ass. Cliff Harris NEVER did anything like that. A year later, Tatum and Stabler would dethrone the Dolphins and Tatum clearly makes six one-on-one tackles on Csonka. Harris never did that. He was clearly looking for a place to hide against bigger opponents. He wanted NO PART of Csonka. The Cowboys FRONT SEVEN stopped Csonka in SB VI. Harris had nothing to do with that whatsoever. After they clearly had him down Harris would sheepishly roll over the pile to make it look like he was in on the play. GTFOH!! LOL!!!

Only an idiotic coward would try to persuade people that the Raiders defensive effort vs. the pass was poor in SB XI and worse than the Cowboys flaming in SB X. It doesn’t fly, Razzie. You no doubt try to convince people that the 49ers secondary’s effort in SB XIX was no better than the Cowboys in SB XIII. Tatum’s SB XI secondary was better than Harris’ SB X secondary and Lott’s SB XIX secondary clearly outclassed the Harris’ secondary’s SB XIII performance. The team numbers are distorted and misleading. How do you explain that the Raiders and 49ers won in routs and the Cowboys were destroyed in those respective Super Bowls? Speaking of misleading numbers…
The North had more soldiers so of COURSE they would have more casualties, you moronic mathematic illiterate. Engage all of us, you closet racist. If the South killed more people, why did they surrender?

You made the big deal about the Raiders winning the Super Bowl following Tatum’s departure. How about Cliff Harris’ departure? Exactly a year after Harris gave up two deep down-the-middle TD passes from Vince Ferregamo to Ron Smith (who?) and–the game-winner– Billy Waddy (WHO???), Dallas matched up against the Rams again in Dallas. The coverage–without Harris–cut the Ferregamo TD passes from three to one and the yards from 210 to 175 and Dallas won easily. It gets better, moron. Three years later, in another playoff game at Dallas, Ferregamo returns with Eric Dickerson (“3,000 yards!” LMAO!!!). Bill Bates starts at strong safety. He promptly gives up two TDs to backup TEs David Hill (300-lbs.) and George Farmer (WHO???), among Ferregamo’s three TD passes. Landry never learned to change with the times, defensively. It’s players like Cliff Harris, Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson and Bill Bates that USC’s Sam Cunningham exploited that gave Paul “Bear” Bryant the vision and validation (to closed-minded, in-denial Confederates) to update his talent pool. The Larry Wilsons and Cliff Harrises were out and the Tatums and Ken Houstons were in. If he could find a Mike Wagner, Tim Fox, Doug Plank, Gary Fencik, or Vann McElroy, good for the Tide. Fox, Plank, and McElroy (who all spoke of The Assassin with reverence) all followed in Tatum’s footsteps with the Ohio State Buckeyes or Raiders. None of these guys ever praised Harris–and McElroy went to Baylor and Fencik and Plank were in the NFC!

Only a fool would say that the best matchup for the best team in football (’70s Pittsburgh Steelers) was a team that lost to them four straight times (the over-hyped Cowboys) instead of a team (the Raiders) that split ten games with them overall in the same decade. Then again, readers, this guy STILL thinks the South beat the North in the Civil War. SMH. So, Razzie, were the ’80s Atlanta Hawks a better matchup for the ’80s Celtics than the ’80s Lakers? After all, the Hawks played “better defense” than the Lakers in the ’80s…LMFAO!!!! You’re a supreme numbskull!

Since the chicken never had the balls to answer this question, let me, the courageous one, tell the truth. Larry Wilson was the Cardinals’ GM from 1977-93. In that time, the team went to the playoffs ONCE, had only three winning seasons, zero divisional titles, and 13 losing seasons, including the last nine straight. You’re telling me Jim Brown and Gale Sayers would have done worse than that, coward? Why–hell, HOW–was Wilson able to hang around THAT long with such a disgraceful record?

• Rasputin
June 2, 2017

So, Joseph Wright, quick question since you dodged this (among other things) in the rage-filled meltdown that was your last post: what’s your new whiny excuse for media voters never making Jack Tatum first team All Pro while they did give Cliff Harris that honor 3 years (4 years counting PFW) ? Your old excuse was that they had a bias against “athletic” safeties back then, but that’s debunked by the fact that they voted Ken Houston, one of the supposedly new wave “athletic” safeties you explicitly listed, first team All Pro before they ever voted Cliff Harris that honor. So why Houston and Harris but never Tatum? After all, Noll’s “criminal element” comment and Darryl Stingley’s paralysis were still years in the future, so those excuses fail too.

Tony Greene was first team All Pro FS in 1974. He was bla….er…”athletic”, as you define the word. In 1975 Paul Krause was first team All Pro FS. Krause was 6-3 and 200 pounds. He holds the career record with 81 interceptions (a league leading 10 of them in 1975, and a league leading 12 his rookie season in 1964, when he was also first team All Pro). In high school Krause was All State in track, baseball, football, and basketball. He scored 54 points in one basketball game. In college he was an all American baseball as well as football player, could hit and throw great (in one game he threw out 4 runners at home from center field), and was drafted by the major leagues, though he opted to stick with football. Krause was a two way star in college, excelling at WR as well as DB, and even played a little receiver in the NFL to fill in for an injured teammate. Bud Grant signed him saying he needed a “super athlete” at FS. Do you consider him athletic? You certainly didn’t list him as an example of your “athletic” safeties. I’m not aware of Tatum playing any other sports but football, even in high school.

Cliff Harris played multiple sports and was in collegiate track as well as football. Harris was used extensively as a returner in the NFL, averaging 28.4 yards/KO return in his busiest return season of 1971, which ranked a very close 3rd in the NFL. The two guys barely ahead of him only had 1 punt return between them, while Harris had 17, in addition to his starting FS duties. Tatum was never used as a returner. Do you have any basis for claiming that Tatum was even faster than Harris, let alone a better all around athlete? You know, aside from the skin color angle you already brought up.

• Joseph Wright
June 3, 2017

Tatum was an all-state and All-American running back in high school, recruited by over 100 universities, and he established the record for longest fumble return in NFL history (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE7PVmME5Dk). Interesting that initially Aeneas Williams was credited with a 103-yd recovery, then was “credited” with another yard to keep Tatum from being exclusively on the top of the books. Cliff Harris never had a play as long as that, Tatum had more INTs, and Swann and Stallworth set and broke records on Harris and not Tatum. Swann had no fear of Harris while he stayed well away from Tatum. Facts.

Tatum was stronger, faster, more athletic, and a much more devastating and intimidating hitter than Harris. Tatum’s speed is a major reason his hits were so ferocious. It is mass times velocity. As a senior, Tatum was documented for running the 100-yd dash in 9.6 seconds at Ohio State. He finished seventh in the Heisman voting as a DEFENSIVE player. The year before he finished tenth. So for the last two years of his college career, Tatum was one of the top ten players in the whole nation. It is highly unlikely Cliff Harris ever ran a 9.5 hundred, otherwise he would have caught John Stallworth from behind instead of getting dusted for the last 40 yards of a SB-record 75-yd TD catch. And Harris college career is dwarfted by Tatum’s achievements. Tatum was a first-round draft pick, Harris was a undrafted free agent. The small college thing doesn’t fly. The No.1 pick in 1970 was from Louisiana Tech–Terry Bradshaw. Chuck Noll was rebuilding with athletes from small southern schools. Obviously, Harris didn’t measure up.

Tatum was also a smarter FS than Harris. He had more INTs although that wasn’t his strength. And because his secondaries only gave up one 100+ yd or multiple TD game to any receiver in the playoffs, he obviously recognized when to help out a corner or strong safety instead of leaving him stranded with a mismatch. This is most evident in his knockout of Denver’s Riley Odoms (though not a playoff game), the shutdown of Paul Warfield in the ’74 Dolphin dethroning, and the first-half shutout of NFC offensive Rookie of the Year Sammy White in SB XI. The Swann disappearances are well-documented.

• Rasputin
June 3, 2017

None of that garbage you posted answers my question: Why did voters never make Jack Tatum first team All Pro when they voted Cliff Harris first team All Pro 3 times (4 counting PFW)? Your old excuse about them supposedly having a bias against “athletic” players has been debunked by Ken Houston and the others who received the award earlier as I laid out above. Stop dodging and answer, you cowardly moron, even if your answer is simply that you have no answer.

• Rasputin
June 3, 2017

Cliff Harris only went to a small school because had had played QB in high school and, while he did great (led them to an undefeated season), he wasn’t projected to play QB at the next level (Tatum couldn’t play QB at any level). So he accepted a scholarship offer from a school that was willing to let him try a new position at DB. He obviously excelled, but almost no small school players get drafted high, especially back then, and they’re certainly never in the running for the Heisman. He was on the Cowboys’ radar because they were ahead of the curve in locating talented gems in overlooked places.

Harris impressed a scout with a 39 inch vertical leap (for comparison Darrelle Revis posted a 38 inch jump; Harris would have been one of the top performers in the 2017 combine; white men can jump), and had no problem elevating. Just look at the photo on the outside of his book* where’s he’s leaping over the Pittsburgh line on a blitz (*Captain Crash and the Dallas Cowboys: From Sideline to Goal Line with Cliff Harris; click on google images to see the different pictures).

In college track Harris competed in the 440 (a longer, tougher sprint than the 100 yard dash). You give Tatum a 100 yard dash time of 9.6, but the Raiders Encyclopedia credits him with a “10” second 100 yard dash, so “documented” is relative. Near the end of Cliff Harris’ NFL career, in his next to last year of 1978, he appeared on the show Superstars and finished a very close third in a 100 yard dash heat behind Greg Pruitt and a young Walter Payton (one hundredth of a second behind Payton), and well ahead of Earl Campbell and Franco Harris (Pruitt went on to win the finals more easily than he did that heat). Harris was credited with an estimated “10.1” second time on a slow track with no spikes. There’s a youtube video titled “1978 Superstars Preliminary 4 – 100 Yard Dash”. I don’t know how fast he would have ran the 100 in his prime, but there doesn’t appear to be much if any difference between he and Tatum in top speed. Short area quickness is usually more important than 40 or 100 top speed anyway. From the eyeball test Harris looks quicker and more maneuverable than Tatum.

You make a big deal out of Tatum’s long fumble return, which was just a straight ahead, wide open sideline shot when circumstances fell the right way. It’s not like he had to bob and weave around people. More importantly it was just one play. You lack perspective and analytical ability. Cliff Harris being one of the league’s better kick off returners for a while is much more impressive and pertinent than a fumble return, lol.

Harris also had more endurance than Tatum. I’m not sure which one was stronger (neither are you), but Harris seriously lifted weights and even built some of his own workout equipment. You’re simply lying about Tatum hitting “much” harder than Harris. They were both among the hardest hitters of the era (“killers”, as SI described them both).

Your canned little “mass times velocity” line is wrong. First, force equals mass times ACCELERATION, moron. And your application is flawed. Hitting isn’t really about 40 or 100 times. It’s about short area explosion, mind set, effort, technique, and a host of other factors including things like bone density. Roy Williams was the hardest hitter in the NFL in the early 2000s, but he wasn’t very fast and, like Tatum, he wasn’t very good in coverage despite having a knack for interceptions. Williams made 5 Pro Bowls (2 more than Tatum) and a first team All Pro selection (1 more than Tatum) based on his Cliff Harris-type hitting. The guys with the fastest 40 times aren’t typically among the hardest hitters.

Of course Cliff Harris became great through his mind and intangibles, not so much the raw athletic foundation. NFL history is full of combine warriors with great 40 times and other measurables who never accomplished anything in the pros. I’m just pointing out that the raw athletic foundation was there too, and that you were ignorant and wrong to blindly assert otherwise.

Harris was much smarter than Tatum, football wise and in general. Harris graduated with double majors in mathematics and physics (do you even know Tatum’s major?). Sports writers Greg Hansen even dubbed Harris “the most intellectual Cowboy”, though there are also a couple of other candidates for that title. Harris was brilliant in dissecting opposing offenses, was instinctive, and had great anticipation and reactions. In interviews he and others have even discussed how his physics knowledge helped him understand angles and how to defeat opponents, knowing where to hit them and use momentum against them. He was much better in coverage than Jack Tatum, as Sports Illustrated analysts and other experts have observed. That’s why he was first team All Pro 3 times to Tatum’s 0, went to twice as many Pro Bowls, and won twice as many Super Bowls.

There’s a lot more to coverage than interceptions, as I’ve educated you on. But since you restarted pathetically harping on interceptions (probably because I just mocked you for having shut up on that score), I’ll remind you that Harris has 3 times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum.

Playoff Interceptions

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 2

What happened to “regular season stats don’t matter”, you pitiful lying moron, LMFAO?

Harris had just as many regular season takeaways as Tatum at 47 counting fumble recoveries. Harris had more total takeaways counting the playoffs.

Total Takeaways, Regular Season and Playoff

Cliff Harris -57
Jack Tatum – 51

And of course Cliff Harris totally crushes Tatum in coverage, as the pass defense stats show across the board.

“Swann and Stallworth set and broke records on Harris and not Tatum.”

The Vikings set and broke records on Tatum and not Harris. The Seahawks, Broncos, and a lot of other teams routinely torched Tatum but not Harris too. Haven Moses leaving a helpless Tatum in the dust on that 74 yard TD pass wasn’t an isolated occurrence. Raider George Atkinson kept Swann in check through cheap shots (e.g. hitting him in the back of the head away from the play), but Stallworth had much more success against the Raiders than the Cowboys in the period where he played both teams. So did the Steelers generally, along with the rest of the NFL. Free safeties usually can’t devote themselves to shutting down a single player, you moron. Their goal is to prevent the opposing TEAM from having success.

“Swann had no fear of Harris while he stayed well away from Tatum. Facts.”

Liar. I quoted directly from a Pittsburgh newspaper discussing how Swann spent all Super X avoiding Harris, you idiot. Facts. Players feared going over the middle against Harris as much as anyone.

I’ve read accounts of Tatum missing practice because he was off sleeping somewhere. Tatum had bouts of laziness. One reason Harris was so much better than Tatum was because he was a brutally hard worker. Harris gave 100% on every play. He never dogged it like Tatum would sometimes, and certainly never made a wussy business decision like Tatum did against Larry Csonka in the 1973 AFC Championship. Whether it’s knocking out Rick Upchurch, the Bronco’s best playmaker, in Super Bowl XII, a game after Denver had torched Tatum’s secondary, laying out great RBs like Walter Payton and John Riggins one on one, gaining those 57 takeaways, preventing completions, or knocking out a countless host of other opposing players over the years, Harris always seemed to make a big impact.

Coming undrafted from a small school through the fluke of having played QB in high school, Harris didn’t have the easy entrance into the NFL that Tatum did. Harris had to work hard every day and impress the coaching staff to earn his way onto the team. Harris made the team and the starting FS role defending guys like HoFer Bob Hayes (much faster than Lynn Swann, Cliff Branch, and everyone else in the NFL), HoF TE Iron Mike Ditka, and (his first full year) HoF great Lance Allworth in practice. He impressed.

Gill Brandt (how’d HE do as a scout, douchebag?): ““Cliff was a defensive back in college and one of the most competitive people I’ve ever been around. His skill set was great — he could run fast and was as tough as all get out.”

Cornell Green on rookie Harris: “Cliff was very aggressive in everything he did,” Green said. “He went all out 110 miles an hour.”

Larry Wilson: “I feel Harris is the finest free safety in the business today. He changed the way the position is being played. You see other teams modeling their free safeties around the way Harris plays the pass, and striking fear in everyone on the field because he hits so hard.”

Cliff Harris was tougher, smarter, more athletic, and better than Jack Tatum. That’s why Harris was so much more important to his team, as the facts show, and it’s why he was rightly voted as the decade’s best free safety.

• Joseph Wright
June 5, 2017

“Cliff Harris only went to a small school because had had played QB in high school and, while he did great (led them to an undefeated season), he wasn’t projected to play QB at the next level (Tatum couldn’t play QB at any level). So he accepted a scholarship offer from a school that was willing to let him try a new position at DB. He obviously excelled, but almost no small school players get drafted high, especially back then, and they’re certainly never in the running for the Heisman. He was on the Cowboys’ radar because they were ahead of the curve in locating talented gems in overlooked places.”

Tatum couldn’t play QB at the NFL level because:
A) Too short (5-11)
B) NFL wasn’t ready for Black QBs. How many Black QBs were there in 1971, Tatum’s rookie year? How many were even drafted? The Redneck Confederate in Denial strikes again! “Tatum couldn’t play QB at any level” ranks right up there with “…at least Larry Wilson got a coaching and GM jobs (unlike Jim Brown and Gale Sayers).” SMH.

“Almost no small school college players get drafted high” Buck Buchanan, Gene Upshaw, Joe Greene, Terry Bradshaw, Steve McNair, Jerry Rice…Uh, if you’re great and your at a small school, it’s not impossible to be drafted high. I could deal with the fact that Harris wasn’t drafted high but then, again, why am I saying “could?” Because he wasn’t drafted…AT ALL! Pittsburgh found many players from small schools in the South. Obviously, Chuck Noll (or his people) wasn’t impressed by Harris. Neither was I.

“I’ve read accounts of Tatum missing practice because he was off sleeping somewhere. Tatum had bouts of laziness. One reason Harris was so much better than Tatum was because he was a brutally hard worker.” Can we get some documentation before you make wild allegations about someone who, among other “leisurely” things, worked under that noted “slacker,” Woody Hayes, at Ohio State?

“In college track Harris competed in the 440 (a longer, tougher sprint than the 100 yard dash).” Show me a football field that is 440 yards long. I guess maybe then he would catch John Stallworth–after being dusted for the first 40-50 yards–LMAO!!!

“From the eyeball test Harris looks quicker and more maneuverable than Tatum.” Only you warped, Cowboy-tinted eyeballs, junior.

” Cliff Harris being one of the league’s better kick off returners for a while is much more impressive and pertinent than a fumble return, lol.” One of the league’s “better”, readers should NEVER be confused with one of the league’s “best.” Razzie’s trying to lie and fool you again. Did Harris ever take one to the endzone? LOL. Tatum vs. Cliff Harris: Tatum 1-0 in head-to-head matchups; Tatum 1 career TD (104 yards), Harris (despite the advantage of returning kicks) 0; Tatum (despite being a ferocious hitter) 37 INTs, Harris (supposedly, “the best cover/hitting FS of the 70s”) 29. Tatum avg. per return on picks: 19.8; Harris avg. per return on picks: less than ten. WHO was the better athlete? WHO had the better speed? WHO was the better player because he returned kickoffs? The so-called lesser player (from the Razzie’s view) generated more turnovers vs the pass and proved to be a better return man once he got his hands on the ball (INTs or fumble recoveries).

“You’re simply lying about Tatum hitting “much” harder than Harris.” Try telling that to Riley Odoms, Lynn Swann, Franco Harris, Earl Campbell, and most of all, Sammy White. Swann would laugh in your face while Odoms, Franco, Earl Campbell, and White would be fighting each other to be the first in line to slap some sense into you. LMFAO!!!

No offense to Roy Williams but he’s most noted for influencing the ban on the horse collar tackle (a ridiculous rule, BTW). To me he was “collaring” people because they got behind him. Tatum hit people who were in front of him. They rarely got behind him–unlike Williams and Harris. And trust me, if a player comes at someone full-speed added to their power, that will be a great hit. Tatum’s hits came from his building up the proper speed.

“Harris was brilliant in dissecting opposing offenses, was instinctive, and had great anticipation and reactions. In interviews he and others have even discussed how his physics knowledge helped him understand angles and how to defeat opponents, knowing where to hit them and use momentum against them.” So….Where was all this “knowledge” in games vs. Swann and Stallworth. Reminder: Tatum-led secondaries vs. Swann and Stallworth 4-2. Harris-led secondaries vs. Swann and Stallworth 0-4. What happened here?

“The Vikings set and broke records on Tatum and not Harris.” STILL fixating on SB XI 83-yd. garbage time passing exploits of Bob Lee vs. Raiders defense with Tatum, Willie Brown, Ted Hendricks, and at least two others ON THE SIDELINES enjoying final minutes of a game that was at the time…32-7 Raiders? Pathetic.

• Rasputin
June 3, 2017

“Engage all of us, you closet racist.”

Oh, Joseph Wright. I haven’t said anything remotely “racist” or you would have quoted it, which you can’t. You’re like the guy in the van who farts and then, embarrassed, turns red faced and starts trying to blame everyone else. You’re the one who brought up race and tried to use Cliff Harris’ skin color against him as a weapon (bigotry defined). I’m the one arguing that skin color shouldn’t matter to this debate. Great players and athletes come in all colors. Quotes like these don’t help your case:

“Landry never learned to change with the times, defensively. It’s players like Cliff Harris, Larry Wilson, Dick Anderson and Bill Bates that USC’s Sam Cunningham exploited that gave Paul “Bear” Bryant the vision and validation (to closed-minded, in-denial Confederates) to update his talent pool. The Larry Wilsons and Cliff Harrises were out and the Tatums and Ken Houstons were in.”

First, neither Alabama or USC was very good in that famous 1970 meeting (they finished 6-5-1 and 6-4-1 respectively), and the mythologizing of that game has lost touch with reality (google: LA Times Separated from the myths, Sam Cunningham’s story remains an inspiration) as, among other things, Bryant had already begun the process of integration. Second, that game didn’t prove any more than TCU’s all white 1957 team beating Jim Brown’s integrated Syracuse in the Cotton Bowl did (both teams were better than 1970 Alabama and USC). Even if TCU’s all white team was better than their integrated opponent, it’s still preferable to not close yourself off from a big chunk of the potential talent pool, all else being equal. Conversely, an integrated team beating a segregated team doesn’t mean it’s time to say “ok, out with all the white players.” Third, Harris and Wilson were both great players regardless of racial classification. Harris joined the NFL at almost exactly the same time as Tatum and years AFTER Ken Houston did, so Harris was the newer player (it wasn’t “out” with him). Harris was also twice as good as Tatum.

Fourth, Landry is actually given credit for being more willing to include blacks early on than most other teams around the NFL were, proving once again that your claims are often the opposite of the truth. He and his staff also were ahead of the curve in finding athletic talent in overlooked places, like HoFer Bob Hayes from historically black Florida A&M, and Cornell Green (a black guy), who was an athletic basketball player but didn’t play college football. Landry turned him him into a 5 time Pro Bowl DB. He was the key safety who preceded the Cliff Harris/Charlie Waters era (he also had HoF CB Mel Renfro, another black guy, play safety some years). As great as Cornell Green was, Harris was even better. Fifth, as I’ve shown, the Cowboys’ pass defense tumbled from elite to mid-pack when Harris retired.

Sixth, while I was rooting for the Falcons in the last Super Bowl, that game had to have been even more painful for you to watch given your outdated, mid to late 20th Century black supremacist views. The Patriots are the NFL’s whitest* and best team (*at least the starters seem that way; I haven’t actually counted). I’m not saying they’re the best because they’re the whitest, but it certainly delivers a blow to your “out with whitey” sentiment. If you don’t believe white people can be great athletes, you also must have avoided watching combat sports this century (MMA, heavyweight boxing), hockey, swimming, baseball, strong man competitions, wrestling, soccer, most Olympic events, and lots of others sports in addition to not paying close enough attention to football.

You’ve exposed that at least much of your antipathy and disrespect toward Cliff Harris and several other great players you’ve named is due to your racial prejudice, laced with heavy doses of ignorance.

You started this debate by making passing yardage allowed arguments from cherry-picked games, and I refuted you by posting hard, undisputed facts showing that the Harris Cowboys decisively crushed the Tatum Raiders overall, in passing yards allowed, and in NFL pass defense ranking for the span of their entirely simultaneous starting careers with the respective teams. It wasn’t even close. In fact the Tatum Raiders were even below the NFL average (pass defense was by far the 1970s Raiders’ weakest component), while the Harris Cowboys were consistently among the league’s elite. You sputtered nonsense about regular season stats suddenly now not mattering. So I posted undisputed, concrete facts showing that the Harris Cowboys also crushed the Tatum Raiders overall and in pass defense in playoff games. I even took the time to research all the common opponent games (against teams that played both teams in a particular year, playoff or regular season), and proved that the Harris Cowboys crushed the Tatum Raiders across the board there too. That rendered your lies about the Raiders facing better competition moot, though for good measure I also posted facts showing the NFC East was much tougher than the weak AFC West, producing many more opposing Pro Bowl QBs and playoff teams.

You call team stats “misleading”, without demonstrating how they’re more misleading than the few cherry-picked individual WR stats you’ve fixated on. You failed to ever address my point about single WR big games mostly coming at the expense of a CB getting worked on, while team stats are more relevant to a FS since he’s usually covering more than one player over the course of a game.

You resorted to hiding behind a cherry-picked game here or there or a couple of apples and oranges comparisons years apart. I proved you hadn’t even watched the games in question and/or were lying about them. For example, you wasted dozens of posts insisting that Harris was “torched” by Lynn Swann in Super Bowl X. I posted facts showing that the Raiders were torched and beaten worse by the Steelers in the immediately preceding game, and then I even quoted directly from a Pittsburgh newspaper explicitly discussing how Lynn Swann completely avoided the middle and Cliff Harris all game, with all of his catches coming against other players, mostly CB Mark Washington when Harris was blitzing or on the other side of the field. You spent numerous posts similarly harping on Harris allegedly getting torched by Charlie Taylor in the early 1970s, even after I cited facts about Charlie Waters famously having to play out of position at CB and being the one to get torched, not Cliff Harris.

You’re STILL humiliating yourself by trying to hide behind a cherry-picked game here or there. It’s pathetic. For every anecdotal negative example you tried to bring up and blame on Harris, I brought up more that cast the Tatum Raiders in a worse light. Dallas lost two Super Bowls to the Steelers by 4 points, games that could have gone either way. The Raiders got swept by the 9-7 Seahawks two years in a row, with scores of 27-7 and 27-10 included among those 4 losses, and were beaten by the Craig Morton Broncos 4 times in 2 years, including by scores of 21-6, a 30-7 drubbing, and the Tatum Raiders’ final playoff game (immediately before the Harris Cowboys utterly annihilated the same team in the Super Bowl). I showed that the Cowboys even played better against the Steelers than the Raiders did in years where they were a common opponent (apples to apples), like in 1972, when Dallas beat Pittsburgh without Roger Staubach while the Steelers whipped the Raiders twice.

You were caught red handed lying about numerous topics, including Super Bowl XII, when you denied that Cliff Harris had knocked out Rick Upchurch, insisting that Thomas Henderson had done so. When I linked directly to the spot in the publicly available video (which you didn’t know existed) showing it was Cliff Harris who knocked him out, you were forced to retract your carelessly made false claim. While you invented fantasies about Harris, I posted and specifically cited real great plays he made, and I cited specific bad plays by Jack Tatum (also on publicly available video), from him helplessly trailing Haven Moses in the 1977 AFC Championship game to him dogging it and making that business decision in the 1973 AFC Championship, letting Larry Csonka run by him without even trying to tackle him.

You made a big deal about Tatum’s interception total, until I pointed out that Harris has three times as many playoff interceptions (shutting you up cold).

You repeatedly claimed Lambert “body-slammed” Harris when the video shows he just ran up behind him and pulled him down, proving you don’t know what a body slam is. A body slam is when you lift someone into the air and slam him down with controlled force like in that Matt Hughes video I gave you. A player could run up to a QB with the ball and do what Lambert did in today’s rules no problem. In fact it’d be a soft tackle. If you try to body slam a QB you’re probably getting flagged.

Harris won twice as many Super Bowls and four times as many conference championship games as Tatum. Your whiny excuses for him having more than twice the personal accolades of Tatum have been shot down one by one, as my above post spells out.

You lose on the big picture and on the little pictures you’ve tried to cherry-pick.

“this guy STILL thinks the South beat the North in the Civil War….Embracing the Confederacy and waving its flag”

I never said or did either, liar. Again, that’s why you can’t quote me doing so. I just posted the simple, undisputed casualty figures to show how idiotic and historically ignorant your claim of a one sided “massacre” or “rout” was.

North deaths – 360,000
South deaths – 258,000

See? That was all I posted. I might as well have been dryly talking about the Egyptians and Hittites at the battle of Kadesh (Joey: “Huh?”) or the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage. The north didn’t exactly have a cakewalk. Exposing your general ignorance underscores that your other claims have zero credibility.

“The North had more soldiers so of COURSE they would have more casualties, you moronic mathematic illiterate.”

LOL! You’re as ignorant on military conflict and logic as you are on history, mathematics, football, and fighting. No, moron, having more troops is an advantage and typically results in suffering FEWER casualties than you would otherwise while INFLICTING more on the enemy.

“If the South killed more people, why did they surrender?”

Because they had fewer people to lose, halfwit. You just said it yourself. Wow….

“You made the big deal about the Raiders winning the Super Bowl following Tatum’s departure. How about Cliff Harris’ departure? Exactly a year after Harris gave up two deep down-the-middle TD passes from Vince Ferregamo to Ron Smith…”

Wait. Stop. Have you seriously been reduced to cherry-picking 2 specific PLAYS, while ignoring the concrete seasonal facts I’ve posted on this?

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

The Dallas pass defense dropped from 3rd to 16th without Harris, while the Raiders slightly improved from 21st to 19th on pass defense and won the Super Bowl without Tatum. That trumps a game here or a couple of plays there. I can’t believe you actually wasted time desperately looking that crap up and typing it. You’re truly pitiful.

“Your name isn’t Rasputin, you hide behind that moniker so people won’t know the true identity of who this idiot really is.”

No, it’s because I’m smart enough to realize that privacy is priceless in this era, especially since I have a tendency to piss off trolls and deranged morons with stalker tendencies. Like Batman said, the mask protects those around you. That said, I don’t know if you’re really “Joseph Wright”. It’s not like you’ve done anything to prove that’s really you, so you can’t even make your argument here, lame as it is.

“You use misleading statistics to fight lost causes (Minnesota’s “record-setting” passing yards in SB XI; Bob Lee’s 80-yd garbage time performance; conveniently mentioning and taking away Pro Bowl appearances, fraudulent common opponent comparisons, etc.,etc.)”

None of those are misleading, liar.

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Super Bowls 1971-1978

Cowboys (4 games) – 155.25 yards/game
Raiders (1 game) – 282 yards/game

The Cowboys really did have a much more dominant pass defense and you’re the idiot who demanded I cite a “record” performance (an irrelevant red herring anyway) when your Raiders allowed record passing yardage (the very topic we’re discussing!) in their only Super Bowl appearance. They decisively beat the Vikings with their offense. But the Raiders were torched for a ton of passing yards by pre-chuck rule-change standards. Even Tarkenton put up over 200 despite not playing the whole game.

Not certain what you mean by taking “away Pro Bowl appearances” (I haven’t contradicted myself as you have on countless issues), and you forgot to mention what was supposedly “fraudulent” about my hard facts on common opponent comparisons.

“Harris was a White man and, when it came time to defend Lynn Swann, he couldn’t jump. No racism, just stating the truth. ”

Um, unnecessarily making your point (which was BS anyway) racial is “racism” if anything is, moron.

“Finished watching the ’73 AFC Title game and although Csonka ran through Tatum, he was also tackled four times one-on-one within the game by the Raiders free safety.”

Early on, while getting carried for several yards. That’s why he made the later business decision.

“Csonka comes through to make a block and Tatum launches through and knocks Csonka flat on his ass. Cliff Harris NEVER did anything like that.”

A BLOCKER, LMFAO?!?! Harris did that all the time. He also routinely laid out great RBs with a head of steam one on one (e.g. Walter Payton) or knocked them several yards out of bounds (e.g. John Riggins).

“He was clearly looking for a place to hide against bigger opponents. He wanted NO PART of Csonka. The Cowboys FRONT SEVEN stopped Csonka in SB VI. Harris had nothing to do with that whatsoever. After they clearly had him down Harris would sheepishly roll over the pile to make it look like he was in on the play.”

You mean Csonka was already tackled before Harris had a chance to tackle him, and Cliff made sure to get into the play anyway?!? You know, the opposite of what Jack “Business Decision” Tatum did, LMFAO? Harris never hid from anyone or dogged it on plays like Tatum did.

“Only an idiotic coward would try to persuade people that the Raiders defensive effort vs. the pass was poor in SB XI and worse than the Cowboys flaming in SB X. ”

The Cowboys surrendered 92 fewer passing yards, which only an idiotic coward would dismiss out of hand, though I never claimed it was a great passing defensive performance either, or deny that the Raiders had interceptions on 2 plays. Super Bowl X was a more defensive game overall than SB XI was though, and both the 1975 Steelers and Cowboys were probably better than the 1976 Raiders and Vikings anyway.

“You no doubt try to convince people that the 49ers secondary’s effort in SB XIX was no better than the Cowboys in SB XIII.”

The 1978 Cowboys had a much better total (2nd) and pass defense (5th) than the 1984 49ers (10th and 17th, respectively), but it would be complicated to compare the “secondary effort(s)” of two individual games by completely different teams almost a decade apart. The 1978 Steelers were a much better team than the 1984 Dolphins and probably the 49ers. And yes, moron, since you don’t know much about football (or fighting, or history, or statistics…), a team’s defense can impact its offense and vice versa, and running and passing games can complement each other.

“Tatum’s SB XI secondary was better than Harris’ SB X secondary and”

LOL! Again, why are you pretending that secondaries only exist for one game? What is this “SB XI secondary” crap and what is it supposed to prove? You’re still wrong anyway.

“How do you explain that the Raiders and 49ers won in routs and the Cowboys were destroyed in those respective Super Bowls? Speaking of misleading numbers…”

The Cowboys only lost by 4 points, you pathetic moron. They weren’t “destroyed” in any Super Bowl (like the Raiders have been). The Raiders and 49ers had easier opponents, and neither the 1975 or the 1978 Cowboys were the best Dallas teams. A much better question is why did Tatum’s Raiders only make it to one Super Bowl while Harris made it to four as a starter? Why were Tatum’s Raiders truly destroyed by the Seahawks and Broncos?

“let me, the courageous one, tell the truth.”

Seriously, were you high when you typed this?

“So, Razzie, were the ’80s Atlanta Hawks a better matchup for the ’80s Celtics than the ’80s Lakers? After all, the Hawks played “better defense” than the Lakers in the ’80s…”

??Well no, moron, because the Hawks weren’t anywhere near as good on offense as the Lakers. Their offense often ranked around the league’s worst, like the Raiders’ pass defense did. Now you’re going to start revisiting old topics you’ve already been embarrassed on?

“Larry Wilson was the Cardinals’ GM from 1977-93. In that time, the team went to the playoffs ONCE, had only three winning seasons, zero divisional titles, and 13 losing seasons, including the last nine straight. You’re telling me Jim Brown and Gale Sayers would have done worse than that”

He won a lot more games than Jim Brown and Gale Sayers did as talent evaluators/assemblers combined. The Cardinals’ problems have been more their owners than their GMs, coaches, or scouts (which Wilson also was) though.

While you’ve tossed around empty words, I’ve demonstrated that you’re a liar, a coward, and a moron. You really have had your ass kicked all over this page, Josephine. Cliff Harris was the best free safety of the 1970s.

• Joseph Wright
June 3, 2017

“He won a lot more games than Jim Brown and Gale Sayers did as talent evaluators/assemblers combined. The Cardinals’ problems have been more their owners than their GMs, coaches, or scouts (which Wilson also was) though.”

ONLY because he got the opportunity to hold those jobs and Brown and Sayers weren’t, moron. I agree the Cardinals’ problem was the owners–they hired incompetents like Larry Wilson. SMH!!!

In Krause’s case, he led the league with 10 picks and the Vikes were 12-2. Of COURSE he will get All-Pro recognition. Greene got the ’74 All-Pro nod over Tatum solely because he had nine INTs. He didn’t even make the Pro Bowl that season. The Bills were a weak defense and the AFC players knew it. That’s why he wasn’t voted in. The writers, like you, strictly looked at the “stats.” Incredibly, because of the “criminal element” garbage (Chuck Noll whining) and his association with George Atkinson, Tatum was denied a Pro Bowl in ’76 (Tommy Casanova?) and ’77, and the players gave that spot to Greene, again because he had nine INTs on another weak Bills defense, the only two times–three years apart–that Greene ever got any honors. Ridiculous.

Cliff Harris was on the track team (lol)? What’d he do? Throw the javelin? Run the mile? Poll vault? I KNOW it wasn’t the sprints or the high-jump. LMFAO!!!

So, now we begin to get an idea of who Razzie is, readers. He defends the Confederacy, acknowledges the he is a troll (hence the fake name), and gives no credibility to USC routing Alabama’s all-White team in 1970. As for the New England claim, it holds no water. No one said it better than Landry Cowboys destroyer Bill Walsh (Yes, Redneck Razzie, we KNOW Dallas routed the 49ers 59-14 in 1980–BEFORE they brought in Tatum inspiration Ronnie Lott, Eric Wric, and Carlton Williamson): “You can coach offense (translation have slow, unathletic starters) but you need players on defense (big, strong, fast athletes).” The Patriots are never cited for lack of speed or athleticism on defense.
Back to waving your Confederate flag, junior.

• Rasputin
June 3, 2017

Forgot to respond to this:

“Bill Bates starts at strong safety. He promptly gives up two TDs”

LOL! I can’t believe you’re still fixating on attacking Bill Bates, out of all the safeties the Cowboys have had. Bates was a good back up safety/nickelback and a great special teams player. Other teams would assign someone to wear the “Bill Bates” jersey in special teams practice when preparing to face the Cowboys so they could get used to tracking his number because he was the one they had to worry about most. There are many Dallas safeties who are more analogous to Cliff Harris (e.g. Darren Woodson), and countless back up safeties (and some starters) who weren’t as good as Bill Bates, skin tone aside (assuming you’re capable of setting such racial concerns aside).

• Joseph Wright
June 3, 2017

Comparing Darren Woodson to Cliff Harris is like comparing a Ferrari to a jalopy. Big insult to Darren Woodson, a far superior player to Cliff Harris. The Cowboys easily split the ’70s matchups with Woodson at safety instead of Harris. You’re an absolute idiot.

• Rasputin
May 25, 2017

Obviously I meant a measly 2 AFC West teams made the Super Bowl in the 1970s. The Craig Morton Broncos did so after torching the Tatum Raiders (again), before being shallacked by the Harris Cowboys.

• Rasputin
June 4, 2017

“Cliff Harris was on the track team (lol)? What’d he do? Throw the javelin? Run the mile? Poll vault? I KNOW it wasn’t the sprints or the high-jump. LMFAO!!!”

He competed in the 440 sprint and posted a 39 inch vertical jump in a scouting test, moron, LMFAO! Honestly, do you ever get tired of buffoonishly faceplanting over and over again?

“Redneck Razzie”

Nice. Now Joseph Wright has even been reduced to spewing racially tinged epithets. Talking about digging his own hole deeper….

“Comparing Darren Woodson to Cliff Harris is like comparing a Ferrari to a jalopy.”

Why, because of their different skin tones, you mindless bigot? They’re both 3 time first team All Pros, Harris has 6 Pro Bowls while Woodson has 5, and they’re both Ring of Honor members. They both won multiple Super Bowls. Harris was first team All Decade while Woodson should have been All Decade. They both belong in the Hall of Fame. They certainly have a lot more in common with each other than either does with Bill Bates OR measly 3 time Pro Bowler Jack Tatum, skin color aside.

“So, now we begin to get an idea of who Razzie is, readers. He defends the Confederacy, acknowledges the he is a troll (hence the fake name)”

All diversionary lies, which is why you can’t produce a single quote. Can’t you at least come up with new lies, “Joseph Wright”, so I don’t have to keep repeating the same refutations?

“and gives no credibility to USC routing Alabama’s all-White team in 1970.”

You shouldn’t judge anyone by his race, or use it against him as a weapon. You’re exhibiting the same vile outlook that the hard core segregationists did. Great players and people come in all colors. So do bad players and villains.

“ONLY because he got the opportunity to hold those jobs and Brown and Sayers weren’t,”

Did they have the desire or talent to become scouts, GMs, or coaches, moron? Jim Brown was so delusional and had such a poor eye for talent that he boasted he could beat Franco Harris in a nationally televised race, lol. He lost. Badly. Cliff Harris easily beat Franco Harris in a 100 dash race, btw, as I recount in an above post.

“I agree the Cardinals’ problem was the owners–they hired incompetents like Larry Wilson.”

Or they aren’t always willing to do what the GM and/or coaching staff want. “Incompetent”? That’s you. Starting in 1974, the year after Wilson was named Director of Scouting, the Cardinals posted 3 consecutive double digit winning seasons and made the playoffs twice. They hadn’t had double digit wins or made the playoffs since 1948. He made the playoffs again while GM in 1982.

“In Krause’s case, he led the league with 10 picks and the Vikes were 12-2. Of COURSE he will get All-Pro recognition. Greene got the ’74 All-Pro nod over Tatum solely because he had nine INTs…. The writers, like you, strictly looked at the “stats.””

No, moron, I practically gave Krause’s life story and you missed my point while dodging my question like the cowardly wuss you are. I asked if you consider Krause to be “ATHLETIC”. Your whiny excuse for Tatum never being voted first team All Pro was that the voters supposedly had a bias against “athletic” players. Krause, Greene, and other earlier first team All Pro FSs were plenty athletic, probably much more so than Tatum.

So is your new argument now that All Pro voters have a bias in favor of interceptions, LMFAO? How then do you explain Cliff Harris being voted first team All Pro 3 times later in the decade? He wasn’t a big interception guy, even if he did have 3 times as many playoff interceptions as Tatum.

“Greene got the ’74 All-Pro nod over Tatum solely because he had nine INTs. He didn’t even make the Pro Bowl that season. The Bills were a weak defense and the AFC players knew it. That’s why he wasn’t voted in.”

If the players knew what was up, maybe that explains why they voted Cliff Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Jack Tatum.

“Incredibly, because of the “criminal element” garbage (Chuck Noll whining) and his association with George Atkinson, Tatum was denied a Pro Bowl in ’76 (Tommy Casanova?) and ’77, and the players gave that spot to Greene, again because he had nine INTs on another weak Bills defense,”

Wait…so you’re saying the players AREN’T a good judge of quality, and that they’re easily manipulated by trivialities like a single comment from an opposing coach? You haven’t put any thought into this, moron. You’re not even smart enough to construct a coherent argument.

“No one said it better than Landry Cowboys destroyer Bill Walsh”

Tatum Raiders destroyer Craig Morton had a high opinion of Cliff Harris, LMFAO!

“Bill Wash…:’You can coach offense (translation have slow, unathletic starters) but you need players on defense (big, strong, fast athletes).’ The Patriots are never cited for lack of speed or athleticism on defense.”

He doesn’t mention anything about race there, moron, and rightly so as “players” come in all colors. I also love how your “translations” differ from what he said, as he’s also talking about polished skill levels, and certainly isn’t saying athleticism isn’t important to offense (though offense is more intricate and versatile so there’s room for more types of players). He’s basically saying a mental lapse on a play or two isn’t as fatal for an offense as a defense, and that there’s more allowance for a learning curve on offense than defense. I’ll add that Walsh was an offensive, not a defensive guy, so it’s not surprising that he preferred coaching up offense. For the record Walsh drafted offensive players in the first round 6 out of his 10 years as coach (and the LB he drafted in 1984 was white, lol). You’re even wrong about the Patriots, since they’re known for NOT having great individual players on defense, but working together as a team well enough to keep most opponents from outscoring them. Certainly their success has been based around Tom Brady and the offense.

That said, JJ Watt, Eric Weddle (4 time Pro Bowler counting this past year, 2 time first team All Pro Free Safety), Clay Mathews, Kyle Williams, Sean Lee, Luke Kuechly, Jared Allen (until retiring last year), Zack Martin, Aaron Rodgers, Jordy Nelson, Rob Gronkowski, Travis Frederick, Joe Thomas, David DeCastro, Richie Incognito, Greg Olson, Jason Witten, Tyler Eifert, and countless others are all big, strong, and/or fast and just fine in the athleticism department. Even punting and kicking have traditionally been considered components of athleticism. There have also always been white guys who excel in the short area quickness department, which is far more important for linemen than 40 times are, and the better teams are recently discovering that it’s more important for other positions like slot receiver too. Those quick little white receivers you’re seeing on teams like the Cowboys and Patriots are legitimately athletic as well, as LBs just can’t cover them.

Cliff Harris was athletic too, and, combined with his skill, mind, and intangibles, was rightly judged by his contemporaries as the greatest free safety of the 1970s.

• Joseph Wright
June 5, 2017

“Diversionary lies,” huh? LOL!!! You’re the one who lost it, went over the top and started these false claims of racism after a harmless, humorous connection to Harris’ lack of hops vs. Lynn Swann with the “White Men Can’t Jump” movie (Harris couldn’t jump and his sure is Wh….LOL!!!).

“Your whole point was that you favor getting white players out of the game, which could be interpreted as you supporting segregation.” Totally untrue. Why would I want White players out of the game? I never would have got to see Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Merlin Olsen, Howie Long, Joe Klecko, Mark Gastineau, Ted Hendricks, Jack Ham, Vann McElroy, Dave Casper. And I definitely wouldn’t have the comforting knowledge of Mike Curtis defeating the Cowboys in SB V, I never would have had the grand pleasure of seeing Jack Lambert body-slamming Cliff Harris live and relive it on NFL Films over and over and over again (LMFAO!!!) , Mike Wagner busting Drew Pearson’s ribs (Tatum-style), and Joe Montana and Dwight Clark proving that Wesley Snipes’ and Woody Harrelson’s movie was simply a sports joke at the Cowboys expense (BTW, I don’t think Harris could have got up in Dwight Clark’s altitude, either. Burned again…LOL!!!).

Uh, numbskull…Coming into 1970, USC was the defending Rose Bowl Champs. The teams were both preseason Top 20 teams (USC # 3; Alabama #16). The preseason’s # 1? Jack Tatum’s Ohio State.

I “repeated popular, debunked myths about that 1970 game?” Like what? Sam Cunningham didn’t run over the all-White Tide defense for over 100 yards (averaging over 10 yards a carry in the process)? USC didn’t win the game? The game was not a rout? The Redneck Confederate in Denial (“The North didn’t kick the South’s ass…”) strikes again.

I am a realist, not a racist. Although let me give you this tidbit: Remember your boy, “Pro Bowl” QB Mike Boryla? After his years of “excellence” in Philadelphia, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers traded for him in 1978. The QB they drafted in that year’s first round at the urging of John McKay (USC’s coach in 1970) and Joe Gibbs (McKay’s assistant at USC and later at Tampa Bay) was told by the redneck GM Phil Krueger, who was the flunky of redneck owner Hugh Culverhouse, that he wouldn’t be playing for three years. Presumably he would be backing up and learning from the “Pro Bowler,” Boryla. As it turned out Boryla, not injured at all, was holding the clipboard and sporting the Buc’s baseball cap come the season opener. The rookie who beat him out and led McKay to cut Boryla at season’s end? Doug Williams–LMFAO!!!

• Rasputin
June 5, 2017

Joseph Wright, you exposed yourself as a racial bigot not just with that one “joke”, but you DOUBLING DOWN on it with your various comments explicitly dismissing or hyping up players based on their skin color. You realize you’ve screwed up and are now trying to backpedal in a panic, but you’re so stupid that in the same post you’re STILL exhibiting bigotry by ignorantly harping on that “1970” game. Now you’re even repeatedly calling me a “redneck”, as if that epithet does anything but confirm your own bigotry. You’re having a meltdown, and, if “Joseph Wright” is your real name, you might want to ponder that the longer you persist in this the more your name will pop up in search results juxtaposed with your prejudiced, idiotic racial views. It’s also hilarious that you’re both falsely insisting I’m mistaken for calling you out for racially bigoted comments (which I can and have quoted), while, like a drowning man, YOU’RE blindly throwing around false “racism” accusations against everyone from “Zimmerman” to me (you certainly can’t back that up with any quotes or facts, liar) to random coaches and faceless media voters throughout the late 20th Century, lol.

Just because people were screwed over back when blacks really were discriminated against doesn’t mean every time a black person loses out to a non-black person it was due to racial discrimination, even back half a century ago, and certainly in recent decades. For example, Staubach getting SB VI MVP over Duane Thomas wasn’t about race. All the MVPs to that point except for Howley in that bizarre SB V game had been QBs, and they’re still usually QBs to this day. Heck, while Thomas had a decent game he did only rush for 95 yards and 1 TD. Staubach had more yards and threw for 2 TDs. If you actually watch the whole game instead of glance at the box score you’d see it’s questionable whether Thomas was even the most valuable RB. Thomas didn’t do much early. Walt Garrison, who finished with 75 rushing yards (at 5.2 y/c) was the one who popped things open with tough running up the middle that gradually made it possible for Thomas to exploit the outside later on against a fading and bewildered Miami defense (remember, not all yards are equal, Mr “numbers, numbers, numbers”). But the main rival to Staubach’s MVP wasn’t a RB, it was Chuck Howley, who again accounted for multiple turnovers and huge, impactful plays, and the Doomsday defense was the real star of that game, as the 1971 Cowboys remain to this day the only team to hold its SB opponent without a TD. For you to just blindly cry “racism” based on nothing says far more about you than anyone else.

So you think Sam Cunningham was better than Jim Brown, LMFAO? That’s awesome. What do you base that on, aside from immediate perceived convenience in a debate? Sam went on to have 1 career Pro Bowl. I’m pretty sure Jim Brown does better than that even if he’s playing today. You keep climbing to ever greater heights of stupidity. To wit…

“Uh, numbskull…Coming into 1970, USC was the defending Rose Bowl Champs. The teams were both preseason Top 20 teams (USC # 3; Alabama #16).”

So? They finished 6-4-1 and 6-5-1, respectively, moron. Jim Brown’s Syracuse came into the 1957 Cotton Bowl with one loss and ranked #8. TCU had 3 losses but was a good team and pulled off the upset. In fact they were ranked #4 early in the season and finished #14 (before their bowl victory). For the record they also blew out Alabama 23-6.

“The preseason’s # 1? Jack Tatum’s Ohio State.”

In 1970? Who cares? In 1970 Texas won the national championship for the second straight year.

“I “repeated popular, debunked myths about that 1970 game?” Like what?”

I already gave you one fact you didn’t know, that Bear Bryant had already started the process of integration by recruiting a black player who wasn’t in that game simply because he was a freshman and freshmen didn’t play. For the rest try reading the LA Times article I directed you to, halfwit.

“The Redneck Confederate in Denial (“The North didn’t kick the South’s ass…”) strikes again.”

Hey, I just posted casualty figures showing you picked a terrible analogy to support your claim (which was also false anyway). That doesn’t make me a “Confederate” or a “Redneck”, you desperate liar. It makes me someone who knows a lot more about history and logic than you do.

“When the media is contaminated with racist writers, thing like that (e.g., Larry Wilson making all-decade–’70s, over Tatum… John Riggins all-dacade–’80s, over Marcus Allen) happen.”

They put at least 23 black guys on the 1970s All Decade team, including Ken Houston first team strong safety, you idiot. As to questionable decisions, they made Earl Campbell and Walter Payton both All Decade 1970s instead of Larry Csonka. Csonka made 5 Pro Bowls, 2 first team All Pro selections, and powered his team to 3 Super Bowls, defining much of the decade (bitch stomping a cringing Jack Tatum in the process on the big stage). Earl Campbell ONLY PLAYED TWO YEARS IN THE 1970s! Payton only had 4 Pro Bowls in the 1970s and neither had any Super Bowl appearances.

Did they discriminate against Larry Csonka because he was white, you drooling moron? Or is it possible that there can be other reasons for making questionable decisions?

Save the “racism” charges for cases where someone explicitly exhibits bigotry and makes race an issue, like you did.

“Whenever a defensive player holds (or in Harris’ case, is given) the title of the best, offensive records and season-highs should not fall under his watch.”

What, like the Vikings’ record passing yardage against Tatum’s Raiders in SB XI?

You know nothing about football or fighting (pulling someone down from behind isn’t a “body slam”, wuss). A safety’s job is to minimize the opposing TEAM’S success, not just one player’s. If you had a choice between an opponent torching you for 250 yards by committee or only gaining 190 yards on you, with 100 of that 190 coming from one guy, which would you choose? Answer the clear, straightforward, telling question without any cowardly dodging. The truth is that if the stat situation was reversed you’d be making the opposite argument and you know it, especially if the few examples of a team being torched can be explicitly tied to a CB rather than the safety in question anyway.

Tatum had one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL while Harris led one of the best. The comparison wasn’t even close. Harris was the best FS by far in the 1970s, and Tatum wasn’t even runner up. Dick Anderson beat Tatum out, and rightly so, not that Anderson was anywhere near as good as Cliff Harris. Anderson was instrumental in anchoring the secondary of the great No Name Defense that made it to three times as many Super Bowls as Tatum did and won twice as many. Anderson was first team All Pro twice (to Tatum’s zero), and not because he was white.

Paul Krause was much better than Tatum, and 5 of his Pro Bowls and 1 of his first team All Pro selections came in the 1970s. Was he left off the All Decade team because he was white? Jake Scott wasn’t as good as Cliff Harris, but he was better than Jack Tatum. If one doesn’t believe Anderson warranted his 2nd team FS slot then it should have gone to Krause or Scott, not Tatum. Even Tommy Casanova, whom you mocked without reason earlier, was more decorated than Tatum, equaling his 3 Pro Bowls and besting him with a first team All Pro selection. Casanova was no joke. In college at LSU he was a consensus first team All American TWICE (very rare), and in 1971 Sports Illustrated featured him on the cover calling him “The Best Player in the Country”. His teammates voted him “MVP” his rookie season. In 2000 he was named to the Walter Camp All Century college team. He had a short NFL career, otherwise he might have been a HoF contender.

• Joseph Wright
June 5, 2017

Glad you to the Zimmerman bait, dummy. First off, Zimmerman was one of the writers who voted on the SB VI MVP. Apparently he spoke with other writers about it in the waning minutes of the game. They all were in agreement that Duane Thomas was the MVP. When Staubach’s name was announced, Zimmerman said they were all shocked because the number that he and the other writers represented definitely would give Thomas the majority. This is chronicled in “The Rise and Fall of America’s Team.”
As for Zimmerman himself, I first got wind of him in the mid-’80s. He used to always put out “The Thinking Man’s Guide on Pro Football.” He would analytically profile every team focusing on a specific topic of each team. In the 1987 preview issue, in the chapter on the Philadelphia Eagles the title read–“Randall Cunningham: A Better Runner Than Marcus Allen…And a Worse Quarterback Than Marc Wilson?” Going into the chapter, Zimmerman says the Eagles should get a “true quarterback” and put Randall Cunningham “into the weight room, have him put on some muscles and make him a running back. He’d probably be the best in the league…” Poor talent evaluation at the least, bigoted, racist idea at the worst. Cunningham would go on a four-year run (1987-90) where he would complete more passes than any QB but one and connect on more TD passes than any QB but one within that span. That one QB who was better was Dan Marino.

“You know nothing about football or fighting (pulling someone down from behind isn’t a “body slam”, wuss). A safety’s job is to minimize the opposing TEAM’S success, not just one player’s. If you had a choice between an opponent torching you for 250 yards by committee or only gaining 190 yards on you, with 100 of that 190 coming from one guy, which would you choose? Answer the clear, straightforward, telling question without any cowardly dodging. The truth is that if the stat situation was reversed you’d be making the opposite argument and you know it, especially if the few examples of a team being torched can be explicitly tied to a CB rather than the safety in question anyway.”

The problem is, Razzie, the one guy who is getting 190 (whether it is Taylor–’72; Jackson–’73 regular season; Swann–SB X; Jackson–’76 playoffs; Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth–SB XIII) is killing your team AND lighting up the scoreboard. I take it the Vikings passing yards in SB XI was the “committee” route. Given the score, I guess the committee route is the way to go. It also worked for the 49ers in SBs XVI and XIX. Good thing Lott was inspired by Tatum and not Harris. LOL!!! Did that answer your question? Was that why Tatum was SOOO much better vs. Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth (4-2) than the Harris crew (0-4)?

BTW, Tatum was never such a wussy that he would try to bully-taunt a kicker (REALLY, Cliff?), and Lambert would never think of trying to bodyslam Tatum.

“Casanova was no joke. In college at LSU he was a consensus first team All American TWICE (very rare), and in 1971 Sports Illustrated featured him on the cover calling him “The Best Player in the Country”. ”

Tatum was a consensus Two-time All-American. And he was 4-1 in games vs. Casanova. As for the other guys, Krause was a the grand INT leader and Scott also played the ball better than Tatum, but neither was eager to make a tackle. If Dave Casper runs over Krause (6-3, 200) and makes the play as Stabler said, “look like a truck running over a rooster,” can you imagine what he would have done to Cliff Harris (6-0, 180–maybe) ? Tatum and Casanova are in the College Football Hall of Fame. No love for Cliff Harris there, either, huh? Oh, well, junior…

• Rasputin
June 6, 2017

And Cliff Harris was probably more like 190-something when he played, well within the normal range of safeties even today. Heck, the aforementioned Tony Greene, who was first team All Pro FS in 1974, was about 5-10 and 170. That Paul Krause was 6-3 and over 200 but wasn’t anywhere near the hitter Harris was (though he was a significantly better all around athlete than Jack Tatum) just goes to show that the bigger guys aren’t necessarily the best tacklers or the hardest hitters.

• Rasputin
June 5, 2017

Near the end of his career Harris was about as fast as young Walter Payton and much faster than Earl Campbell and Franco Harris, as the 100 yard race video I directed you to shows. He was probably even faster in his prime. That shows he’s fast enough to play safety in any era, depending on the other vital traits, and he had those in spades.

“No offense to Roy Williams but he’s most noted for influencing the ban on the horse collar tackle (a ridiculous rule, BTW). To me he was “collaring” people because they got behind him. Tatum hit people who were in front of him.”

LOL! Further proof you’re a fraud, Joseph Wright. He did both. If you don’t look at any other sourced evidence I direct you to, watch the youtube video titled “Roy williams hard hits!!!!!!”. Heck, Cris Collinsworth famously did an excited clinic live during a game on Williams’ rare hitting power while replaying a devastating tackle. Collinsworth on Roy Williams: “A lot of people think this guy is the next great one and so do I. I wouldn’t very casually compare anyone to Ronnie Lott, because I think he’s one of the great ones of all times, but when you can take somebody running full speed down the field, hit him and in the NFL MAKE HIM GO STRAIGHT BACKWARDS, you just don’t see that.” You can listen to the audio in the youtube video “Roy Williams Hard Hits and Highlights- Dallas Cowboys”.

“They rarely got behind him–unlike Williams and Harris.”

The facts say otherwise.

Passing Yards Allowed 1971-1979

Cowboys – 18,948
NFL average – 20,248.8
Raiders – 20,704 (torched!)

Net Passing Yards Allowed, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 145.7 yards/game
Raiders (12 games) – 152.1 yards/game

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions, Playoffs 1971-1979

Cowboys (18 games) – 0.8 TDs allowed/game, 2.2 INTs/game
Raiders (12 games) – 1.1 TDs allowed/game, 1.3 INTs/game

Pass Defense Rankings

1976
Cowboys (with Harris) – 7th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 23rd

1977
Cowboys (with Harris) – 2nd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 22nd

1978
Cowboys (with Harris) – 5th
Raiders (with Tatum) – 20th

1979
Cowboys (with Harris) – 3rd
Raiders (with Tatum) – 21st

————-

1980
Cowboys (without Harris) – 16th
Raiders (without Tatum) – 19th

“Tatum couldn’t play QB…because: A) Too short (5-11)”

Boo hoo. We’re talking about physical (and mental) traits, loser. Given that, it’s worth noting that while Cliff Harris (who was a great high school QB) wasn’t projected or given a chance to play QB at higher levels for physical measurable reasons, he was a couple of inches taller than Tatum, and, given his 39 inch vertical jump, I bet could reach higher footballs than Tatum.

“Buck Buchanan, Gene Upshaw, Joe Greene, Terry Bradshaw, Steve McNair, Jerry Rice…Uh, if you’re great and your at a small school, it’s not impossible to be drafted high.”

A few rare exceptions aside, teams mostly just looked at the big schools, and scouting was haphazard in 1970. The Cowboys were on the cutting edge of bringing a systematic approach and finding overlooked gems. By the 1980s when Jerry Rice was coming up things had changed. Plus Bradshaw’s La Tech was a bigger deal than Ouachita Baptist, lol, Bradshaw was already celebrated nationally coming out of high school, and on any level QBs who rack up big numbers are more visible than a defensive back.

“Obviously, Chuck Noll (or his people) wasn’t impressed by Harris. Neither was I”

Craig Morton’s Broncos weren’t too impressed with the Raiders (or the Steelers for that matter). Neither were the recently expansion Seahawks, lol. The Steelers certainly weren’t impressed with the Raiders (“criminal element”; cheaters). The people who voted Cliff Harris to twice as many Pro Bowls as Jack Tatum, 3 first team All Pro selections to Tatum’s 0, and first team All Decade status while correctly leaving Tatum off were impressed with Cliff Harris though, once they watched what he did against NFL competition. So were the opponents they played week and week out, who had a much, MUCH easier time passing against the Raiders than the Cowboys.

Me: “In college track Harris competed in the 440 (a longer, tougher sprint than the 100 yard dash).”

Joseph Wright: “Show me a football field that is 440 yards long.”

Show me a football game that’s only one play long. The 440 speaks to toughness and endurance. And, as I explained, a 100 (or even 40) yards isn’t that relevant to football. On a per play basis short area quickness is more important, and Harris was also quicker and more maneuverable. That’s not only my eyes judging but the people who voted him more than twice the accolades of Tatum, and the coaches who made him a kick returner than Tatum never was.

“I guess maybe then he would catch John Stallworth–after being dusted for the first 40-50 yards–LMAO!!!”

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

You lose again, little Joey Wrong. Man, it’s satisfying to knock it out of the park every time you tee me up like that.

We’ve established that you know nothing about football, moron, but you realize that a SINGLE PLAY (like one career return fumble recovery TD) is by definition aberrational and fluky, don’t you? So are turnover return yards, as they’re mostly dependent on circumstances. You can fall on a fumble in a crowd for no return or dive for an interception for no return or get tackled right away because multiple offensive players are surrounding you. The “average” isn’t meaningful the way it is if you’re returning kicks, and Harris ranking #3 in the league is pretty good. Speaking of aberrational and fluky, you’re not even trying to reconcile still pitifully bringing up that one 4 point “head to head” 1974 meeting at the finale of the Cowboys’ worst season all decade and one of the Raiders’ best years with the Cowboys beating the 1980 Raiders by 6 points (also at Oakland), considering you certainly don’t think that proves Dallas was better than the Raiders even in 1980, let alone for an entire era. That’s because you’re a dishonest coward.

“Tatum (despite being a ferocious hitter) 37 INTs”

What happened to…”The regular season stats are empty.” “The regular season stats are an illusion” – Joseph Wright, in earlier posts…?

LMFAO! Not sure why being a ferocious hitter would make it harder to intercept passes (again, Roy Williams was the hardest hitter in the league and led the team in interceptions despite being terrible in coverage), but to the extent takeaways are a legitimate feather in one’s cap (as I’ve consistently said from the beginning), Harris even wins there:

Career Playoff Interceptions

Cliff Harris – 6
Jack Tatum – 2(!)

Total Takeaways, Regular Season and Playoff

Cliff Harris – 57
Jack Tatum – 51

“And trust me, if a player comes at someone full-speed added to their power, that will be a great hit. Tatum’s hits came from his building up the proper speed.”

You’re claiming Tatum’s hits came from getting a long running head start like on special teams, lol. Just go away, Joey. You’re embarrassing yourself. And no, having played, watched, an analyzed football more than you have, I don’t “trust” you. I know how to hit hard. You don’t always have space or time to build up to full sprinting speed when tackling someone, and you almost never do when you’re playing regular defense.

Harris was tougher, smarter, had more endurance, and was more athletic than Tatum. He went all out on every play and never made business decisions like Tatum did against Csonka. Harris was rightly judged by his contemporaries as the best FS of the 1970s.

PS – The 1970 all white Ole Miss team beat mediocre Alabama worse than USC did, 48-23 (25 points) rather than 42-21 (21 points), LMFAO. Tennessee beat Alabama 24-0, though Tennessee (like some other SEC teams) had already begun integrating a couple of years earlier, further puncturing the hyped up mythology around that 1970 USC/Alabama game that stems from California chauvinism and catchy media narrative construction at the expense of truth as much as anything.

And, BTW, your USC hero Pete Carroll called Tommy Casanova one of his “favorite players” when talking about how he would have liked to have coached at LSU.

• Joseph Wright
June 6, 2017

“He went all out on every play and never made business decisions like Tatum did against Csonka.” First off, Tatum wasn’t making a Deion-like “business decision” that you continue to lie about. Csonka ran through him over like he did most DBs he ran against. Another reason Harris never made a business decision vs. Csonka was because he was looking for a place to hide in SB VI whenever Csonka had the ball and ONLY sheepishly showed up on the scene a few times AFTER Lilly, Pugh, Jordan, Richards, and Howley had secured and corralled Csonka to the ground. Then and only then would Harris roll over the pile to make it look like he was “in” on the tackle. No doubt, trying to con the stat people to give him an assist on the work that the Dallas front seven had already completed. GTFOH!!! LOL!!!

Lets deal with the TRUTH about John Stallworth vs. the Raiders in contrast to his torching of Harris and the Cowboys: He made key plays including a TD catch in the AFC Title game that got the Steelers to SB X. Did nothing to the Tatum led secondary after that. Never had a TD catch or beat Tatum’s secondary again. What Razzie tries to hide, readers, is that in the ’77 matchup with Dallas included in his four catches and 46 yards is a 28-yard TD catch. Of course, we all saw what Stallworth did to Cliff Harris in just ONE HALF in SB XIII (115 receiving yards, 2 TDs, record-tying 75-yd TD catch where he dusts the slow Harris hopelessly for the last 40 yards on live TV before the whole world–LMFAO!!! Too bad the football field wasn’t 440 yards, LOL!!!).

Thanks for the Cliff Harris rollover “assist,” dummy. “Heck, Cris Collinsworth famously did an excited clinic live during a game on Williams’ rare hitting power while replaying a devastating tackle. Collinsworth on Roy Williams: “A lot of people think this guy is the next great one and so do I. I wouldn’t very casually compare anyone to Ronnie Lott, because I think he’s one of the great ones of all times, but when you can take somebody running full speed down the field, hit him and in the NFL MAKE HIM GO STRAIGHT BACKWARDS, you just don’t see that.” Compared him to Ronnie Lott, who came out of Tatum. He didn’t compare him to Cliff Harris. Way to go, chump!

“Near the end of his career Harris was about as fast as young Walter Payton and much faster than Earl Campbell and Franco Harris, as the 100 yard race video I directed you to shows. He was probably even faster in his prime. That shows he’s fast enough to play safety in any era, depending on the other vital traits, and he had those in spades.” Whatever he did in the “Superstars” competition didn’t translate for Cliff Harris on the field. Franco ran up the middle for TDs of 61(’77), 22 (SB XIII), and 48 yards (’79) and Harris is nowhere to be found. His MIA performance on Thanksgiving vs. Earl Campbell in ’79 is well-documented. He wanted NO PARTS of Earl. It’s not like Harris didn’t have any opportunities (33 carries for Campbell, 195 yds.). And Campbell just cruised to a 61-yd TD. Where was the Cliff Harris who beat Campbell in this “Superstars” race? Cliff?!? CLIFF?!!? SMH.

“Show me a football game that’s only one play long. The 440 speaks to toughness and endurance. And, as I explained, a 100 (or even 40) yards isn’t that relevant to football. On a per play basis short area quickness is more important, and Harris was also quicker and more maneuverable. That’s not only my eyes judging but the people who voted him more than twice the accolades of Tatum, and the coaches who made him a kick returner than Tatum never was.”
The flaws with your excuse, Razzie, is that one play (75-yd TD) was one of multiple scores that Harris gave up. How can a 100 yard dash be irrelevant to a game played on a 100-yd field? And as for 40-yd dashes, that was obviously important to Stallworth’s success and Harris’ failure on the last forty yards of that record tying play that–oh, by the way–tied the score, dumbass.

“John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards”

Why don’t you list Stallworth’s TD in ’77 vs. Dallas, coward? You lists his ’75 TD vs. the Raiders. And since you flip-flop and cherry-pick with this “common opponents crap” (“Only if they play each other in the same season…”–Bull. Let’s just see how the Cowboys and Raiders did against the Steelers for the whole decade. The was no free agency or major changes in personnel, especially from ’74 on), show Stallworth’s SB XIII stats, Just like you show his ’76 stats vs. Raiders. The stats by yards are misleading. Because if you look at the results of GAMES PLAYED, the Raiders were a FAR superior matchup for the Steelers than the Cowboys. Pittsburgh played the Raiders ten times in the ’70s and went 5-5. Pittsburgh played the Cowboys five time in the ’70s and went 4-1. The fully-stocked Steelers (following ’74 draft: Swann, Stallworth. Lambert) were 2-4 vs. the Raiders and 4-0 vs. the Cowboys. How would anyone with at least half a flea’s brain say that the Cowboys were a better matchup for the Steelers than the Raiders in the ’70s? The game is not played on paper (yard rankings), Razzie. It’s played on the field (scoreboard). Like Doug Williams said, “Stats are for losers.”

If the Vikings were “torching” the Tatum secondary SOOO badly, why had the Vikings scored only one TD, before Bud Grant gave up and put Bob Lee in for the last four minutes of SB XI? Did I mention that the Raiders were leading 32-7?

If Ronnie Lott’s SB XIX secondary played “no better” than Harris’ SB XIII secondary, why did Miami Marino and the Marks Bros. have 16 points and a loss at game’s end while Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth had 35 points and another SB victory–over Dallas, AGAIN–at their game’s end?

• Rasputin
June 5, 2017

LOL! You’re basing your libel that Zimmerman is a “racist” on him arguing that Randal Cunningham should maybe be converted to a skill position player?!?! That’s still a defensible position TODAY. That’s your best shot at him? You suck. You’re a truly crappy human being, Joseph Wright. I think Cunningham was a good QB (being a Cowboys fan I saw him play a lot more than you did; he even played for Dallas some at the end), but, though his passing improved over the years, he never had truly good mechanics. He was always a great athlete with a sandlot look to his game. Did Zimmerman say he didn’t think he should play QB because he was black, or are you just inferring that based on your own prejudices?

Cunningham had it easy. Tony Romo wasn’t even drafted and went on to retire (maybe) with the 4th highest career passer rating in history. Who knows? Maybe even Cliff Harris would have done great as a college QB if he had gotten the chance to play instead of having to convert to a DB just to get his foot into the door.

As for SB VI, apparently you’re wrong since the vote went the other way, lol. This may have surprised Zimmerman after his alleged little straw poll, but you didn’t quote him saying anything about race. It’s not even clear what the accusation would be…..that Thomas really won and a secret conspiracy higher up switched the results? Work harder to build a coherent argument, Wright. Meanwhile, the facts I laid out all stand.

“The problem is, Razzie, the one guy who is getting 190 (whether it is Taylor–’72; Jackson–’73 regular season; Swann–SB X; Jackson–’76 playoffs; Bradshaw, Swann and Stallworth–SB XIII) is killing your team AND lighting up the scoreboard.”

The Raiders surrendered way more TDs and yards and lost more games in the regular season and playoffs, moron. How many times do I have to crack your head with that statistical sledgehammer? You lost. Period.

“Good thing Lott was inspired by Tatum and not Harris. LOL!!! Did that answer your question?”

The scouts and coaches were more impressed and inspired by Cliff Harris, which is why they took a Harris-like player like Lott. And yes, technically you answered the question, but extremely stupidly since you just said you would rather give up more yards than less, LMFAO!

Maybe that’s why Tatum went 1-4 in conference championship games while Harris went 4-2.

“BTW, Tatum was never such a wussy that he would try to bully-taunt a kicker (REALLY, Cliff?), and Lambert would never think of trying to bodyslam Tatum.”

He never body slammed Harris either, but Tatum was enough of a wuss not to want to tackle Larry Csonka after a while, lol. Harris never made business decisions like that. And it’s hilarious to hear a RAIDERS FAN constantly whine and cry about Harris smiling and giving the kicker a quick pat on the back. That’s hardly “bullying”. A little smart ass maybe, but not hitting a little WR in the back of the head hard enough to give him a concussion when he’s far away from the play, “criminal element” type douchebaggery.

“Tatum and Casanova are in the College Football Hall of Fame. No love for Cliff Harris there, either, huh?”

Only because of the tiny school he played at, but he’s got a lot better chance at the Pro Football Hall of Fame than Tatum does. I’m glad you’ve done a quick 180 on Casanova after the education I gave you though, son.

“As for the other guys, Krause was a the grand INT leader and Scott also played the ball better than Tatum, but neither was eager to make a tackle. If Dave Casper runs over Krause (6-3, 200) and makes the play as Stabler said, “look like a truck running over a rooster,” can you imagine what he would have done to Cliff Harris (6-0, 180–maybe) ?”

Harris would have flattened him like he did Walter Payton, John Riggins, and other great players. Like you said, Krause wasn’t a great hitter. He and Scott were fine tacklers, contrary to your claim, but they weren’t “killers” the way Harris and Tatum were. And there’s a lot more to playing safety than just hard hitting. In fact the era of the “killer” free safety that Cliff Harris ushered in really only lasted about 3 decades or so. Now, with rule changes, the emphasis is almost completely on pass coverage skills. That was important back then too. Fortunately Cliff Harris excelled at both.

• Joseph Wright
June 6, 2017

“LOL! You’re basing your libel that Zimmerman is a “racist” on him arguing that Randal Cunningham should maybe be converted to a skill position player?!?! That’s still a defensible position TODAY. That’s your best shot at him? You suck. You’re a truly crappy human being, Joseph Wright. I think Cunningham was a good QB (being a Cowboys fan I saw him play a lot more than you did; he even played for Dallas some at the end), but, though his passing improved over the years, he never had truly good mechanics. He was always a great athlete with a sandlot look to his game. Did Zimmerman say he didn’t think he should play QB because he was black, or are you just inferring that based on your own prejudices?”
The fact of the matter is the fraudulant, bigoted DR. Z never said anything remotely like that about Tarkenton, Staubach, John Elway or Steve Young. Only Cunningham. Only a redneck Confederate sympathizer like you and other bigots would give anyone a pass on a comment like that. Pre-1999 Black QBs had to deal with that crap all the time about changing their position. In college, when Cunningham finished he was one of only three QBs in college history to pass for 2,500+ yards for three consecutive years (the others were Elway and Doug Flutie). And after that bigoted, racist statement that Z had the ignorance to actually publish, Cunningham goes on a four-year run (1987-90) where only Marino outdoes him in completions and TD passes. Cunningham was always a talented, competent passer. Racists are a slick as they are ignorant, dummy. Z was never gonna write or say “Cunningham should not be a QB because he’s Black,” no more than you would tell your wife “I’m going to go out to cheat on you with this other woman.” You’re an idiot.

“Cunningham had it easy. Tony Romo wasn’t even drafted and went on to retire (maybe) with the 4th highest career passer rating in history.” “Easy?” He had to go to a small school (UNLV), was drafted in the second round, played with a sieve of an offensive line in Philly and was messed up by Rich Kotite and treated like dirt and run out of town by Ray Rhodes. Only Buddy Ryan and Dennis Green understood his talent and value. As for Romo, it is much easier to complete passes in this era than in Cunningham’s era. Romo was never a great QB, and Randall was far better. So, dumbass, was Romo better than Staubach or Aikman? You failed to redeem yourself of the racial bigotry tag, redneck.

• Rasputin
June 6, 2017

So you’ve got absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman or anyone else you’re accusing is actually a racial bigot. I thought so. I don’t know what Zimmerman said about Tarkenton, Staubach, Elway(?), or Young, and I seriously doubt you do since you’ve been caught in so many lies that you have zero credibility, but even if he didn’t say the same thing about them, so what? They were all vastly better passers than Randall Cunningham, as their NFL careers show. I’m not saying I would have made Cunningham a skill position player. I wouldn’t have. Remember I called him a “good” QB. I just pointed out that it’s not an insane argument to make, especially when he was first coming into the league, and certainly isn’t necessarily “racist”. He never got his passing mechanics completely down. That’s just a fact. It has nothing to do with skin color.

“Racists are a slick as they are ignorant, dummy.”

You’re saying “racists” are both slick AND ignorant. Riiiiight. I disagree.
Slick and ignorant don’t typically go together. After all, the only racial bigot involved in this discussion is you, Joseph Wright, and you’re a clumsy, faceplanting, ignorant moron. You’re even still blindly spewing epithets like “redneck” at me (making a lot of assumptions in the process, lol) without any basis whatsoever, out of panicked defensiveness because you realize you stepped in it and are desperately throwing diversionary carp at the wall in hopes something sticks.

“Z was never gonna write or say “Cunningham should not be a QB because he’s Black,” ”

Because America was already so opposed to anti-black bigotry even back then that such a comment would have been roundly condemned and the writer’s career likely ended? Look what happened to Jimmy the Greek at around the same time. Well that, and there’s zero evidence Paul Zimmerman is a racial bigot.

“As for Romo, it is much easier to complete passes in this era than in Cunningham’s era. Romo was never a great QB, and Randall was far better. ”

Piss off, moron. When he retired Randall Cunningham ranked 34th in completion percentage, 17th in passer rating, and 81st in yards/attempt (that’s his own era and earlier, halfwit). Romo ranks 5th in completion percentage, 4th in passer rating, and 6th in yards/attempt, despite playing with a crap offensive line for much of his career (talk about having to make things happen while running for his life) and never a great defense like Cunningham enjoyed in his prime. Heck, Cunningham never even ranked in the top 5 in completion percentage. Romo was a much, much better passer. It’s not even close. Romo made Laurent Robinson famous with 11 TD catches in his only season at Dallas (he combined for 4 the rest of his career). Cunningham was a good QB, if you count his running ability, but he wasn’t great. Romo was great.

“First off, Tatum wasn’t making a Deion-like “business decision” that you continue to lie about. Csonka ran through him over like he did most DBs he ran against.”

No, liar. He didn’t have to run over him on that playoff TD run when Tatum was right next to him and only half heartedly extended ONE hand to sort of pat Csonka as the RB rumbled by him. Cliff Harris never made a business decision like that. He always went all out.

“Another reason Harris never made a business decision vs. Csonka was because he was looking for a place to hide in SB VI whenever Csonka had the ball and ONLY sheepishly showed up on the scene a few times AFTER Lilly, Pugh, Jordan, Richards, and Howley had secured and corralled Csonka to the ground. Then and only then would Harris roll over the pile to make it look like he was “in” on the tackle.”

That’s not looking for a place to “hide”, moron, if even you concede he’s going out of his way to get in on the play even if it’s over. Quite the opposite. It’s not his fault that the Doomsday front 7 shut down Csonka before the SAFETY had a chance to get to him. Harris had plenty of opportunities to tackle other running backs though, and did so brilliantly, never hiding or making Tatum-like business decisions. You’re also making up that crap about Earl Campbell, which was in Harris’ last season anyway. Tatum’s embarrassing performance against Csonka came when the self-named “Assassin” (LOL!) was in his prime. Tatum didn’t even start in HIS last season.

“Lets deal with the TRUTH about John Stallworth vs. the Raiders in contrast to his torching of Harris and the Cowboys: He made key plays including a TD catch in the AFC Title game that got the Steelers to SB X. Did nothing to the Tatum led secondary after that. Never had a TD catch or beat Tatum’s secondary again.”

Liar. He torched the Tatum Raiders for 94 yards the very next year, LMFAO! He only caught passes in 3 games that year, and for only 19 and -2 yards respectively against the other two opponents.

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1975 Playoffs

Raiders – 2 receptions, 30 yards, 1 TD (off the bench)
Cowboys – 2 receptions, 8 yards, 0 TDs (starting)

John Stallworth Performances Against Opponents, 1976 Reg. Season
(only caught passes in 3 games)

Raiders – 6 receptions, 94 yards
Browns – 2 receptions, 19 yards
Oilers – 1 reception, -2 yards

John Stallworth Performances against Dallas/Oakland, 1977

Cowboys – 4 receptions, 46 yards
Raiders – 3 receptions, 87 yards

The Tatum Raiders NEVER played the Steelers again after that. They only played them ONCE after Stallworth became the full time starter in 1977 (cited above), and never after the chuck rule was changed before the 1978 season, leading to an epochal leap in stat inflation.

“Why don’t you list Stallworth’s TD in ’77 vs. Dallas, coward? You lists his ’75 TD vs. the Raiders.”

Because you had already talked about it and I was contributing loads of facts you omitted, true coward. Ok though, Stallworth had a TD against Dallas in that game but TWICE AS MANY YARDS against Oakland. Yards help the TEAM score TDs, moron. And in the 1975 playoffs he had more yards AND a TD against the Raiders, off the bench, while doing virtually nothing against the Cowboys as a starter.

“And since you flip-flop and cherry-pick with this “common opponents crap””

LMFAO!! So now “common opponents” is allegedly cherry-picking? No, you cowardly piece of worthless garbage. I’ve posted stats showing Harris crushes Tatum in pass defense in the regular season, in the playoffs, and I went out of my way, above and beyond, further than I really needed to, to count up common opponents just to remove any hint of an argument you might have, not matter how remote or ignorant, and showed that Harris crushes Tatum there too. Common opponents is objective (it’s literally used as a tiebreaker for seeding by the NFL and other leagues) and covers the entire era. Cherry-picking is the idiocy YOU’RE pulling, where, without any scientific or objective rhyme or reason, you pull a single player’s performance out of a single game, ignoring everything else (which overwhelmingly refutes you) and not making an apples to apples comparison or often a comparison at all to the other guy, you stupid wuss.

“show Stallworth’s SB XIII stats, Just like you show his ’76 stats vs. Raiders. The stats by yards are misleading.”

LOL! You started the yardage debate, and now that you’ve been thoroughly crushed from every angle you feel that yardage stats are “misleading”. Raiders fan Joseph Wright doesn’t possess an ounce of manhood or honor.

I showed the 1976 stats because you were making such a big deal about how Tatum supposedly shut Stallworth down. I didn’t make such boasts about the Cowboys. The Raiders were the ONLY team Stallworth torched in 1976. You never have accounted for that. The 1978 stats are irrelevant because the chuck rule had changed, leading to passing stat explosion, and because the Tatum Raiders never played the Steelers or Stallworth again after 1977. They only played him ONCE after he became a full time starter, rendering your entire obsession with Stallworth absurdly disingenuous. The Cowboys did perform better against Stallworth than the Raiders did for the period in which both teams played him (and in years where the Steelers were a common opponent; the Cowboys performed better against Pittsburgh overall in those years too). And at least Stallworth is a HoFer.

You want to talk about torchings? How about Tatum getting torched by the Vikings for 316 yards in 1978? Ahmad Rashad caught 115 of those, including TD passes of 58 and 34 yards from Tarkenton.

How about Bob Klein’s 54 yard TD reception as the Chargers crushed the Raiders 30-10 in 1979?

How about Seahawk Sam McCullum GOING OFF on Tatum’s Raiders for 173(!) receiving yards, including a 65 yard TD pass, as Seattle torched Oakland with 314 passing yards?

Or the Seahawks in a different game in 1979 putting up 316 passing yards on Tatum’s Raiders, with Steve Largent going for 139 yards on 5 catches with 2 TDs, one of them a 40 yard TD? That was the biggest yardage total of Largent’s career up to that point, the second highest he ever posted in the 1970s, and remained his 7th highest total even at the end of a career that spanned the pass happy 1980s. Jim Zorn posted a 143 rating against Oakland that day.

Or Ken Burrough torching Tatum’s Raiders with TD receptions of 55 and 35 yards as the Oilers beat Oakland 31-17? Burrough had 109 yards on 3 catches from Dan Pastorini, lol. Pastorini posted a 145 rating against the Raiders that day.

You see, little moron, you lose even on the cherry-picked anecdotal stuff because I have much more material to work with than you do. That’s because the Harris Cowboys were a lot better than the Tatum Raiders, in no small part because Harris was a lot better than Tatum.

Me: “Collinsworth on Roy Williams: “A lot of people think this guy is the next great one and so do I. I wouldn’t very casually compare anyone to Ronnie Lott, because I think he’s one of the great ones of all times, but when you can take somebody running full speed down the field, hit him and in the NFL MAKE HIM GO STRAIGHT BACKWARDS, you just don’t see that.”

Joseph Wright: “Compared him to Ronnie Lott, who came out of Tatum. He didn’t compare him to Cliff Harris.”

He didn’t mention Tatum either, LMFAO! Seriously, you must absolutely suck at chess, or at least you would if you somehow learned to play that or some other strategy game requiring you to think at least one move ahead. And no, Lott didn’t “come from” Tatum, moron.

Did you at least watch the videos I directed you to though? Do you retract your ignorant comment about Williams supposedly not being a big hitter?

“Whatever he did in the “Superstars” competition didn’t translate for Cliff Harris on the field.”

6 Pro Bowls, 3 first team All Pro selections, first team All Decade status, consistently elite pass defense rankings, 4 conference championships as a starter, and 2 Super Bowl wins say it did. He was vastly better than Tatum.

“Franco ran up the middle for TDs of 61(’77), 22 (SB XIII), and 48 yards (’79) and Harris is nowhere to be found.”

You lost so bad on the pass defense discussion that you want to talk about run stopping now, lol?

The Tatum Raiders got torched (mostly up the middle) by the Patriots for 296 rushing yards and 207 rushing yards, the Steelers for 224 and 196 yards, the Saints for 212 yards, the Colts for 210 yards, the Chargers for 263, 233, 197, and 196 yards, the Chiefs for 241, 224, and 222 yards, the Dolphins for 266 and 213 yards, the Bills for 200 yards, the Broncos for 295 and 215 yards, the Oilers for 205 yards, and the Seahawks 204 yards.

That’s 20 games. You know how many times the Harris Cowboys allowed 196 or more rushing yards? Eight games, and they won 4 of those, lol. The Tatum Raiders only won 6 of those 20 games listed above.

You lose here too, little Joey Wrong. Badly.

“The flaws with your excuse, Razzie, is that one play (75-yd TD) was one of multiple scores that Harris gave up. How can a 100 yard dash be irrelevant to a game played on a 100-yd field?”

What “excuse”? I gave no excuse. Harris was a collegiate sprint track athlete who did well in the 100 yard dash, as I showed. Jack Tatum surrendering a 74 yard TD pass to Haven Moses was just one of MANY MORE TDs HE GAVE UP, as the facts I’ve posted show. Cliff Harris allowed fewer yards, completions, and TDs than Tatum. Period. You still lose, Joey.

And I never said running the 100 or 40 in shorts and a t-shirt in a straight line was irrelevant to football. I just said it’s not as relevant as short area quickness and game speed.

“Because if you look at the results of GAMES PLAYED, the Raiders were a FAR superior matchup for the Steelers than the Cowboys. ”

Wrong.

Versus Steelers As A Common Opponent, 1972, 1975, 1977

Winning Percentage

Cowboys – 33%
Raiders – 25%

Net Passing Yards Allowed

Cowboys – 141.3 y/g
Raiders – 170.5 y/g

Opponent Completion Percentage

Cowboys – 40%
Raiders – 49.5%

Even if you had been right, which you aren’t, it’s still just one team, stupid. We’re talking about who’s better against the LEAGUE, not just one team. That’s more of your failed cherry-picking. More of your pathetic squirming. And why do you keep trying to run away from the Craig Morton Broncos comparison, coward? The 1977 Broncos were the most important common opponent, and the only one all decade that played Dallas/Oakland 5 (or even more than 3) times in a year.

Record Against The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games): 2-0
Raiders (3 games): 1-2

Passing Yards Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys (2 games) – 57.5 y/g
Raiders (3 games) – 165 y/g

Completion Percentage Allowed Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 38%
Raiders – 54%

Passing Touchdowns Allowed, Interceptions Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys – 0 TDs/game, 2.5 INTs/game
Raiders – 1.67 TDs/game, 0.67 INTS/game

Average Score Versus The 1977 Broncos

Cowboys: 20.5–8, +12.5 margin
Raiders: 16–21.3, -5.3 margin

Craig Morton Passer Rating Against 1977 Playoff Opponents

Raiders – 102.9
Cowboys – 0.0

“With virtually no coverage responsibility, a free safety must recognize which of his teammates needs coverage support and help him out.”

LOL! Didn’t I already make fun of you for falsely claiming that a free safety has “virtually no coverage responsibility”? We’ve already established that you know nothing about football, fighting (e.g. what a “body slam” is), or countless other topics. You don’t have to keep driving the point home. Besides, Harris did a much better job helping his team out, as the stats show.

“his playoff secondaries were never at the wrong end of any playoff records given to any individual player that ultimately resulted in losses”

I don’t even know if that’s true (you have zero credibility, remember), but it’s irrelevant since TEAM stats (or “records”, if your prefer) are what ultimately matter to results. And the Tatum Raiders did lousy on pass defense and overall compared to the Harris Cowboys in the playoffs and the regular season.

“You talked about the free safety must help his TEAM and not an individual corner. If you cover for a corner, Razzie, you’re taking care of your teammate. Isn’t that helping your TEAM, dumbass?”

Well you’ve got more than one teammate, moron. You’ve got 10 of them on the field at any given time. Debating you really is like teaching special ed.

“Tatum was physically bigger, stronger and faster than Harris and, therefore more intimidating.”

Tatum was slightly bigger (though not as big as Paul Krause; so what?), I’m not sure if he was stronger (you haven’t demonstrated that; Harris was strong), and I’ve only seen video of Harris (not Tatum) competing well in the Superstars sprint. Harris was tougher, much smarter than Tatum (Harris had a double major in physics and math; did Tatum even graduate? Do you even know? You never answered what his major was), was quicker and more maneuverable (why he was a good KO returner while Tatum mostly just had straight ahead speed), and had more endurance.

But those raw qualities pale in comparison to what actually happened on the field. The best or even smartest athletes aren’t always necessarily the best players. That stats, results, and accolades overwhelmingly show that Cliff Harris was the better player. Their contemporaries among players, coaches, AP voters, and the HoF selection committee determined that. Harris was rightly chosen as the best free safety of the decade.

• Joseph Wright
June 12, 2017

So you’ve got absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman or anyone else you’re accusing is actually a racial bigot. I thought so. I don’t know what Zimmerman said about Tarkenton, Staubach, Elway(?), or Young, and I seriously doubt you do since you’ve been caught in so many lies that you have zero credibility, but even if he didn’t say the same thing about them, so what? They were all vastly better passers than Randall Cunningham, as their NFL careers show. I’m not saying I would have made Cunningham a skill position player. I wouldn’t have. Remember I called him a “good” QB. I just pointed out that it’s not an insane argument to make, especially when he was first coming into the league, and certainly isn’t necessarily “racist”. He never got his passing mechanics completely down. That’s just a fact. It has nothing to do with skin color.”

You lying, pathetic redneck.
Given that Black QBs were regularly moved from their natural position of quarterback to another (e.g., running back, receiver, defensive back)–a racist practice through the mid-90s–the fact that Dr. Z would actually have the audacity to publish that garbage in print was outrageous, bigoted, and racist. Cunningham was a record-setting passer in college. At the time he was drafted in 1985, he was one of only three college QBs (with John Elway and Doug Flutie) to have passed for 2,500 yards for three consecutive seasons. Zimmerman never suggested that Tarkenton, Staubach, Griese, Elway, Steve Young be made into running backs. He simply termed them “scrambling” or “mobile” quarterbacks. The only difference between Cunningham and them is that he’s Black and they’re not.
“They were all vastly better passers than Randall Cunningham, as their NFL careers show. ” Really? Cunningham has a higher passer rating than Elway. In Elway’s first ten seasons he threw for 20+ TDs once. In his first six seasons, RC had cleared 20 TD passes four times. RC had only two seasons in his career with more INTs than TD passes, Elway had four. Additionally, RC had seasons with 30 TD passes or more, Elway zero. Elway never led the NFL in passer rating for a season while Cunningham pasted a 106 in 1998 to pace the league. Cunningham threw more TD passes and had a lower INT percentage than Staubach. He threw more TDs than Griese and, better yet, threw almost 30 less INTs. Young benefitted enormously from playing in the 49ers system. Yet in his first four years in the NFL, he had completed less than 54 percent of his passes. In his first two years with the Niners, he was under 54 percent. Show me any documentation of Zimmerman writing or saying Tarkenton, Staubach, Griese, Elway, or Young should be switched to another position from QB. He never did, dumbass. Only a redneck, Confederate apologist like you would say that that suggestion of a Cunningham position change is “defensible.” Only an idiot wound fail to see the double-standard.

Need more examples, nitwit? In “The Game That Changed Football” the focus is on the 1968 Jets and their SB III victory. Zimmerman is one of several people (Former coaches, players, broadcasters, writers, etc.) to comment and reflect on those times and that team. Zimmerman made a big deal about Joe Namath hanging out more with the Black players than the Whites on the Jets. This fixation is one of the reasons Namath refused to speak with Zimmerman, according to the late sports reporter Dick Schaap.

In the 1988 NFL preview issue of Sports Illustrated, Zimmerman wrote an article bemoaning the alleged lack of talent at the QB position. Within it (it’s really not certain whether he is comparing raw talent or evaluating the seasons they had) he evaluates the performances of QBs from ’73 to QBs of the past ’87 season. He couldn’t bring himself to state that ’87 Doug Williams (11-5 TD-INT ratio; 94 rating; SB Title; SB MVP; stronger arm) had a better season than ’73 Sonny Jurgensen or Billy Kilmer. As for Houston, Z grudgingly called Warren Moon a “competent vet” vs. the Pastorini/Dickey ’73 duo, but went out of his way to point out “but (’73 Oiler QBs) certainly had the arms.” He just can’t give the Black QB unquestioned credit, huh? The Philadelphia Eagles situation was interesting. the ’73 Roman Gabriel and the ’87 Cunningham both had 23-12 TD-INT ratios. Zimmerman: “Gabriel wins on the strength of an entire career.” Eagles in ’73: 5-8-1 and averaged 22.1 a game. Eagles in ’87: 7-5 non-strike (I have never counted SCAB games) and averaged 25.2 per game. Zimmerman just couldn’t bring himself to give a Black QB proper credit. A Filipino, yes. A Black, no. It’s all here in (dare I say it) black and white: https://www.si.com/vault/1988/08/29/118272/pro-football-1988-apb-for-qbs-the-dearth-of-talent-at-quarterback-seems-to-be-more-glaring-than-ever-question-is-why. And you wrote, “there’s zero evidence Paul Zimmerman is a racial bigot.”

Of course, redneck, we all know about Zimmerman’s hangups with Ken Stabler and his failed attempt to keep the Snake out of the Hall of Fame. You have ignorantly said my use of redneck is an epithet? Redneck is no different than liberal, conservative, militant, hippie, feminist, Communist, draft-dodger. They are all commentary labels on someone’s sociopolitical attitudes, numbskull. Where does Zimmerman and Stabler fit in? Zimmerman always believed a Bay Area sportswriter was set up by associates of Stabler to be incriminated for drug possession. These associates of Stabler’s were termed by Zimmerman, “f—ing redneck friends of his.” Those guys that were accused weren’t rednecks. Hicks or hillbillies, maybe, but not rednecks. And neither was Stabler. Stabler mixed freely with Black people (Gene Upshaw; Art Shell; Bob Brown; Jack Tatum; George Atkinson; Willie Brown; Woodrow Lowe; Joe Greene; Doug Williams; and Huey Newton. Yes, THAT Huey Newton). And as for the other rednecks I talked about like the dead Buccaneers owner Hugh Culverhouse, take a look at these:

Doug Williams–“My honest impression of Tampa Owner Hugh Culverhouse is pretty much the same as everybody who knows him: If someone wanted a perfect redneck asshole, Culverhouse would be a top candidate.”

Bo Jackson to his agent Richard Woods–“Hugh Culverhouse has some red behind his neck.”

So, because he didn’t sign Doug Williams (ONLY the heart of the offense; took them to the playoffs three of four years with two divisional titles) and Bo Jackson (lost him to baseball) the franchise disappears for 15 years. After his racist ass kicks the bucket, Tampa re-emerges–with Tony Dungy as the head coach.

So are Doug Williams, Bo Jackson, myself and Dr Z. guilty because we say “redneck?” How about Jeff Foxworthy? Dr. Z. has hangups all over: Black QBs, rednecks, Ken Stabler. I’m not finished with your redneck ass yet, junior.

• Rasputin
June 13, 2017

You’re the only one involved in this discussion who has exhibited racial chauvinism, prejudice, and hostility, Joseph Wright.

“”Zimmerman never suggested that Tarkenton, Staubach, Griese, Elway, Steve Young be made into running backs. He simply termed them “scrambling” or “mobile” quarterbacks. The only difference between Cunningham and them is that he’s Black and they’re not…. Elway never led the NFL in passer rating for a season while Cunningham pasted a 106 in 1998 to pace the league. Cunningham threw more TD passes and had a lower INT percentage than Staubach.”

The “only” difference, LMFAO?!? Wrong, little Joey. Staubach retired with the best career passer rating in history and 2 Super Bowl titles. It’s hilarious that earlier you falsely accused me of wrongly comparing stats from different eras (apples and oranges), only for you to actually turn around and do that. Remember, Cunningham retired ranking 20th in passer rating, tied for 60th in yards/attempt (I accidentally said 81st earlier, that’s his current rank), and 47th in completion percentage (I earlier said 17th and 34th for rating and percentage, giving him too much credit, because the source I used failed to account for higher ranking ties). Staubach also ranked #5 in completion percentage and #7 in yards/attempt. Staubach led the league with a 104.8 passer rating in 1971 (one of 4 seasons he led the NFL in rating), a year when the NFL average was only 59.3. When Cunningham led the league his only time with a 106 rating in 1998 (Randy Moss’s first, explosive season), the NFL average was 76.2.

Fran Tarkenton retired ranked #7 in passer rating, #5 in completion percentage, and #19 in yards/attempt, having led his team to 3 Super Bowls.

Of course Young also retired #1 in passer rating, #1 in completion percentage, and #4 in yards/attempt, with a Super Bowl ring to boot. Sure, he was helped by the 49ers’ system, but not enough to account for the difference between him and Cunningham. Not even close. It was obvious just watching that Young was a much better passer.

John Elway got his team to 3 Super Bowls in the 1980s without much help, before winning 2 in the late 90s once he finally got a great RB. He didn’t have a great defense like Randall Cunningham did in his prime, and certainly never had a WR like Randy Moss as Cunningham did during his one statistical stand out year. Cunningham never led his team to a Super Bowl though. Elway was a volume QB who isn’t noted for his efficiency passing stats. Elway led the NFL with 4,030 passing yards in 1993 and had 12 years of over 3,000 yards. Cunningham never led the league in yards and only threw for over 3,000 five times despite playing just as long as Elway did, and a little later into more stat inflated territory to boot. Elway ranked #2 in career yards at retirement while Cunningham retired ranked at #25 in yards. Elway also has the strongest football throwing arm I’ve ever seen, perhaps tied with Brett Favre.

All that said, Cunningham doesn’t even have much of an efficiency case over Elway. Elway has a higher career completion percentage than Cunningham, despite John’s much greater volume of passing, and through 1997, before the Randy Moss skewing season, Elway even had a higher career passer rating than Cunningham. Elway retired tied for 45th in yards/attempt compared to Cunningham’s 60th, again, despite Elway throwing a lot more passes.

Even Bob Griese, whom you now strangely raise despite neither you or I mentioning him on this point before, retired ranked #12 in passer rating, #11 in completion percentage, and #21 in yards/attempt….better than Cunningham across the board.

My point firmly stands.

“Cunningham was a record-setting passer in college. At the time he was drafted in 1985, he was one of only three college QBs (with John Elway and Doug Flutie) to have passed for 2,500 yards for three consecutive seasons.”

And look how Flutie was repeatedly screwed over in the NFL because of his height. The guy didn’t get the same opportunities Randall Cunningham did, but was the Michael Jordan of the CFL and may be the most underrated NFL QB with a recognizable name of all time. It’s not always about race, Joey. In fact it’s usually not.

“Only a redneck, Confederate